PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

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mrgor
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PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby mrgor » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:36 pm

Considering building as Pre 65 Bike from scratch for the 2018 season.
Wondering what is out there that might fill the bill.
Ron Spencer
Victoria
mrgor@connexus.net.au



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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby Twinshock200 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:58 am

Several factors to consider Ron and I offer this advice after riding Pre 65 classics for the last 18 years in Qld.;

1. What is your budget to spend on a bike, its possible to find a restorable two stroke villiers for a couple of grand or anything up to $8000 for a fully competitive Triumph Tiger Cub or BSA C15.
2. Be very careful about what qualifies as a Pre 65 Classic as the rules are very specific, eg. BSA Bantams 4 speed are not eligible, Bultaco M10 also as they both came into production after Jan 1st 1965.
3. Balance your budget against the amount of rides you can get, ie, specific events catering for a Pre 65 class, in Qld this season there have been very, very few Pre 65 events to justify the $240 MQ licence fee and consequently the class has just about died.
4. Is there a local club who have a nucleus of Pre 65 enthusiasts who can assist your project.
4. What are your mechanical skills like to help you doing work on a project to keep the cost down ?
5. Some bikes come up for sale as "a fine old Classic" but miss the Pre 65 date by 10 years, be careful, do your home work.
6. Within Pre 65 Classic grade there is a "Specials" category but as far as I can recall no club has ever promoted this to encourage bikes that don't quite fit into genuine Pre 65 grade

If you need any further help drop me an email, twinshock2@gmail.com
Galps


Where have all the Pre 65 Classic bikes gone ?

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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby paulm » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:10 am

Roger - a question - why are 4 speed Bantams ineligible in Australia when they're eligible in all other jurisdictions including the Scottish Pre 65?

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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby Twinshock200 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:55 am

Hi Paulm
I don't make the rules, I think the words "pre 65" might be a clue, but they are ok for pre 65 "Specials" category, not that anyone promotes it.
Pre 65 "Specials" were accepted into the MOMS about 4 years ago to include similar Classic models with later factory updates to 1968


Where have all the Pre 65 Classic bikes gone ?

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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby JC1 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:40 pm

mrgor wrote:Considering building as Pre 65 Bike from scratch for the 2018 season.
Wondering what is out there that might fill the bill.
Ron Spencer
Victoria
mrgor@connexus.net.au


Good move Ron.

To follow up Roger's tips & try to answer your question, "What's out there?", if you mean what might be for sale as a basis for your project I can't help, but if you mean what's in use in Oz here's some that I know of that have been set-up for classic trials:

CZ-Jawa 175 & 250 - some excellent ones in your own state. Geoff Lewis and Paul Sens know plenty about them
Ariel Colt 200
BSA C15 & B40, Bantam and even a C11 side-valve 250
Greeves Scottish
James, Francis Barnett, DMW, Cotton, HJH and Sprite. Villiers-engined, usually 197
Honda 90 & Benley twins. The 90 can be taken out to 145cc with a bit of work. Very light & perform better than you'd think
Guzzi Stornello 125
Triumph Cub
Vibsa and Trilliers (Villiers-engined Bantam and Cub)
Suzuki 80 K10/K11, taken out to 100cc
BSA-Otter B40 (eligible for Pre68/Specials)

Hopefully I might be able to find some pics of them to post later.

There's a few heavyweights around too (but the class is all but extinct):

Grumpy 350, ie Triumph-twin engined Greeves
RE Bullet
Ariel HT500
BSA 350 (Goldstar?)
AJS 350 & 500
Matchless 350
Norton hybrid, 500T? ES2?
Triumph twin


Here's a thread showing numerous classics from around the world, if you need ideas/inspiration:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8271

Some lovely bikes & plenty of food for thought there. (Drool, drool!)


And here's an extensive draft list from another thread on this forum of what should/could be eligible (if you can find them):

Pre65 CLASSIC - Eligible Models Guidelines, ie models "available to the public before 1 Jan 1965" :
(These lists are not necessarily exhaustive, or infallible)

British:

AJS, any OHV single, eg 16C
Ariel , any single, eg Colt, HT3/5; plus Arrow 200/250 twin
BSA, any pre-unit models, eg Goldie; plus C15 & B40 distributor models & Bantam to D7
Butler Trials; Tempest, Fury (Parkinson) & Spitfire (Starmaker)
Cotton Trials, Trials Special, (NOT Minarelli-engined Cavalier or mid 70s DMW-engined Javelin)
DMW up to Mk17 Trials & Mk18/Mk18D MX (NOT mid-70s DMW engined model)
Dot, any Villiers-engined models, eg Trials Marshall & Works Rep
Douglas, any eg Dragonfly 350
Francis Barnett, any AMC or Villiers-engined models, eg Falcon Trials 83, 85 & 93
Greeves Prospect & Scottish (ie to TFS)
James, any AMC & Villiers engined models, eg Commando L25T, M25T, M16
Matchless, any OHV single eg G3C/LC
Norman, any eg B2C & B4C
Norton ES2, 500T etc
OEC, any eg C1, C2, ST3
RE OHV singles, eg Crusader & Bullet
Scorpion Trials
Sprite Villiers/Cub-engined models (NOT Sachs/Zundapp/Hodaka/Sprite-engined)
Sun, any eg Wasp (not to be confused with later Wasp RT4 from Rhind-Tutt)
Tandon, any eg Kangaroo, Imp, Scrambler
Triumph round-fin & oval-fin Cubs; 350/500 twin, eg 3TA/5TA
Villiers engines including 8E, 9E, 10E, 32A, 37A, Starmaker & DMW versions
Villiers alloy top-end conversions including Ajax, Greeves, DOT, DMW, Marcell, Parkinson, Vale Onslow
Velocette Venom, Viper , LE 200

German:

Adler M125/150/200, MB250
BMW R25, R26 & R27 250
DKW RT175, 200 & 250
Horex Regina 250, 350 & 400; Resident 250 & 350
Hercules, 4sp Sachs-engined models, eg K100 to K103 (100/125cc) & K175 (175cc)
Maico M150/175/200/250 oval barrel, single down-tube frame, eg M250 Blizzard/Sport/Bundeswehr, Scrambler & Enduro
MZ ES125/150/175/250/300 & ES175/250G
NSU 100 Fox, 125 Super Fox; 175 Maxi; 200 Lux, Super Lux; 250 Max,Gelande Max, Supermax; 300
Sachs 4sp models only, eg K100 to K103 (100/125cc) & K175 (same as Hercules)
TWN 250 split-piston models, eg Cornet
Zundapp 4sp models to 250, eg 200S & Challenger, 250 Super Sabre, KS100 (type 514), GS/KS 75

Italian:

Aermacchi 175 Ala Rossa, 250 Ala Verde/Bianca
Bianchi 125 & 175 eg Bernina, Mendola, Cervino, Tonale; also M61 Military
Benelli 175 OHV Turismo, Sport, S
Ducati Cadet/Mountaineer 90; narrow-case OHC singles to 250 (NOT wide-case or Desmo models)
Gilera 150/175 OHV Sport/Rossa
Guzzi 125 Stornello OHV 4sp; 175 & 235/250 Lodola (OHC) 4sp
Italjet-MZ 125 Junior Sport (MZ 4sp engine)
Morini OHV 125/150 Corsaro/GT; OHV 175 Tresette/Sprint & GT/Briscola; OHV 250 Settebello 2 (maybe only 4sp models)
Motobi 125/175 Catria
MV Augusta ‘50s/’60s 125/150/175 (4 stroke), 250 Raid
Parilla any, eg 175 Fox Sport & 250 GS, Wildcat etc

Japanese:

Bridgestone 90
Hodaka Ace 90 (4speed engine)
Honda C100/105 (all variants with 50/55cc OHV 2bolt engines), C200 & CT200 (all variants with 90cc OHV 2bolt engines); S65 (65cc OHC 2bolt engine); S90 (90cc OHC 3 bolt engine); C/CA/CB/CS92 Benly ‘sloper’ twins (NOT later SS/CD/CB/CL125 sloper twins); CA95 Benly sloper twin; (NOT vertical twins)
Kawasaki B8 125
Suzuki 80 K10/K11
Yamaha, any YG1 (80s); YA 125 (up to YA6), YAT-1 125; YC175

Spanish:

Bultaco 4sp models to 175/200: M1 to M9, eg Tralla, Sherpa N & S, Matador, Campera, Mercurio
Derbi 125 Super & Especiale
Lube 125, 150 & 250 (NSU engined)
Montesa 4sp to 175; eg Impala, Comando, Sport (model prefix 2M, 3M, 4M, 6M)
Mototrans; see Ducati
Ossa 125/B/C; 4sp 160, 160T & GT; Gran Tourismo 175 (OHV)
Sanglas 100 Sport (Zundapp-engined)

Other:

CZ/Jawa round case 3 or 4sp models (eg Type 470, 475) & banana-framed 250 ISDT (Type 652)
Harley 125/165/175 2T models, eg Hummer, Super 10, Ranger, Pacer
Husky 250 4sp round case, bolt-up frame
KTM 125 Trophy
Motobecane 175 Zs
Puch TF250 & any split-piston model, eg 150, 175 & 250
Tempo 125/150/175 4sp Sachs engine
WSK M150

Potential Flow-on models – These may be eligible for Pre65 (NB Must check all major components are "visually indistinguishable" from those available before 1965):

Bridgestone 100 maybe?
Bultaco 4sp models to 200cc; eg Saturno, Lobito, Junior, Senior (eg M12,13, 19 to 22 etc)
Daelim CL90 (copy of eligible Honda 90)
Guzzi Stornello 160 4sp maybe?
Harley 175 Scat
Honda CL90, CD90Z (with 3 bolt engines), CT90K0 frame only (it's same as CT200 frame), C65 frame (same as C100 frame)
Kawasaki B8 150 probably
Montesa 4sp 175 models, eg Kenya/Texas/Cross/Enduro 175s; 8M, 12M, 14M, some 13Ms (ie 175s); probably Impala2 (minus the 7 spoke cast wheels).
Ossa 160T2 & T2/72; 4sp 175 Sport/SE /Trail probably; NOT 230/250 models
Indian built Enfield Bullets probably
Suzuki K15 Hill Billy/Trail 80
Yamaha YGS-1 (80); YA7 125;


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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby JC1 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:37 pm

OK, here's some pics of classics in Oz, in no particular order:
Attachments
Hon S90, RLeggatt.JPG
Hon S90, RLeggatt.JPG (1.78 MiB) Viewed 2149 times
CZ250 of G Lewis.jpg
CZ250 of G Lewis.jpg (461.01 KiB) Viewed 2149 times
Ariel Colt, Connondale  2011 Classic Dirt, P Ariel & C Gillies.jpg
Ariel Colt, Connondale 2011 Classic Dirt, P Ariel & C Gillies.jpg (609.42 KiB) Viewed 2149 times
CD6 Norton Trials.JPG
CD6 Norton Trials.JPG (94.82 KiB) Viewed 2151 times
Triumph, PLimbert.JPG
Triumph, PLimbert.JPG (144.61 KiB) Viewed 2151 times
P1010053.JPG
P1010053.JPG (909.06 KiB) Viewed 2151 times
Sprite trials.jpg
Sprite trials.jpg (182.22 KiB) Viewed 2151 times
CZ 175 trials, 2015 Oz Nats, GHarding pic.jpg
CZ 175 trials, 2015 Oz Nats, GHarding pic.jpg (168.45 KiB) Viewed 2151 times
Bantam-Villiers trials (CD6).jpg
Bantam-Villiers trials (CD6).jpg (149.06 KiB) Viewed 2151 times


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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby JC1 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:08 pm

And a few more:
Attachments
Bantam, Comerfords tribute  2.jpg
Bantam, Comerfords tribute 2.jpg (206.06 KiB) Viewed 1798 times
IMG_6870.JPG
Ariel HT5
IMG_6870.JPG (152.49 KiB) Viewed 2133 times
Tri-Greeves TD 350.JPG
Tri-Greeves TD 350.JPG (40.3 KiB) Viewed 2133 times
Greeves 1960 24TCS.jpg
Greeves 1960 24TCS.jpg (126.86 KiB) Viewed 2133 times
Vibsa, JSolomano.jpg
Vibsa, JSolomano.jpg (190.75 KiB) Viewed 2140 times
Vibsa 200  2, Chris Leighfield.jpg
Vibsa 200 2, Chris Leighfield.jpg (263.39 KiB) Viewed 2140 times
Tri Cub, T Bax Oz Champ 2014.jpg
Tri Cub, T Bax Oz Champ 2014.jpg (136.18 KiB) Viewed 2140 times
James 197, T Telfer.JPG
James 197, T Telfer.JPG (151.58 KiB) Viewed 2140 times
Honda twin, Rob L  2.JPG
Honda twin, Rob L 2.JPG (151.94 KiB) Viewed 2140 times


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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby mrgor » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:04 pm

Hello All,
Thank You for your interest, replies and excellent photo's
Still thinking of the best way forward.
You have given us lots to ponder.
Ron Spencer



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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby Twinshock200 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:30 pm

The Vibsa with the blue tank was the first Vibsa that Chris Leighfield built and photographed outside my house, I bought it off him in 2008. It was a 197cc Villiers motor in a BSA bantam frame with highly modified ****** forks,,, ssshhh.
I rode it a couple of times but the power wasn't to my liking (2 stroke) and the brakes needed improving but Chris persevered with the VIBSA theme and produced two more before he passed away.
It won a "Best presented Bike " and first place in Classic grade at a Logan river trial and I sent the "best Presented Bike" award down to Chris before he died.
Hey Jeff, is that one of the other Vibsa's in the pics above ??


Where have all the Pre 65 Classic bikes gone ?

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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby Francis B » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:13 pm

Hi all, nice collection of classics. Wouldn''t it be nice to see them at a trial, now that would be nice! My blue "vibsa" is one I put together but have only ridden a few times (spoilt for choice!) . I thought , from memory the blue tank Vibsa hat Chris built was a 150cc and maybe ended up in Queensland? A biased opinion but it's hard to beat a Villiers 6E "something" for bang for bucks. Even with the 3 speed they are lots of fun for lower grade riders (not a Cub or CZ beater) .
Cheers Jeff



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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby JC1 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:32 am

Here's a few more classics in Oz:

Another from Jeff - a nice little FannyB rigid
FB, J Solomano, Oakley MCC extravaganza.JPG
FB, J Solomano, Oakley MCC extravaganza.JPG (149.04 KiB) Viewed 1142 times


Vibsa 3, by Chris L
Vibsa 150, Chris Leighfield.jpg
Vibsa 150, Chris Leighfield.jpg (351.25 KiB) Viewed 1142 times


Vibsa 2, by Chris L
Vibsa2-LHS.jpg
Vibsa2-LHS.jpg (350.09 KiB) Viewed 1142 times


I think this is from when Roger had Vibsa 1 on show
Vibsa, ex Leighfield.jpg
Vibsa, ex Leighfield.jpg (128.8 KiB) Viewed 1142 times


Bantam D7
Bantam, Cedric 2.jpg
Bantam, Cedric 2.jpg (239.36 KiB) Viewed 1142 times


BSA C15
BSA C15, TBax.jpg
BSA C15, TBax.jpg (209.42 KiB) Viewed 1142 times


Cub and Vibsa
Vibsa and Cub Trials.JPG
Vibsa and Cub Trials.JPG (417.92 KiB) Viewed 1142 times


And Rob's Suz K10, still being built (forget Yamaha on the tank)
Suz, Robs K10.jpg
Suz, Robs K10.jpg (308.68 KiB) Viewed 1142 times



Feel free to add more pics, folks


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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby Paul S 74 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:50 pm

20170731_123839.jpg
20170731_123839.jpg (1.26 MiB) Viewed 1015 times

These are my 2 CZ model 450's they are 175 cc ,they were an agi bike back in the 60's.With not a lot of work I have turned these into trials bikes.They handle very well . And are super relable



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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby David Lahey » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:40 pm

They look fabulous Paul. Thankyou for putting the photo up


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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby Twinshock200 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:53 pm

Then of course there is always a heavyweight like this;
BSA 350 069.jpg
BSA 350 069.jpg (2.03 MiB) Viewed 927 times


Where have all the Pre 65 Classic bikes gone ?

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Re: PRE 65 TRIALS BIKE

Postby Twinshock200 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:00 am

Or a lightweight starting off
Cub Project 006.jpg
Cub Project 006.jpg (2.01 MiB) Viewed 927 times
like this;
And ending up looking like this;
Attachments
phphKmOxyAM.jpg
phphKmOxyAM.jpg (185.5 KiB) Viewed 927 times


Where have all the Pre 65 Classic bikes gone ?


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