Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

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David Lahey
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Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby David Lahey » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:14 am

There are some Twinshock and Classic events being run to the rules for the era of the bikes, but at most events, Twinshock and Classic classes are run to modern rules.
The change from modern rules would be that stopping within a section would incur a 5 point penalty. Modern rules allow stopping for no penalty.
The purpose of this forum topic is to gather all the issues and opinions connected with a proposed change to running Twinshock and Classic classes to no-stop rules in events alongside the other classes riding to modern rules.
Please use this topic to make your opinions known.


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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby Beech » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:38 am

I for one think it would have been near impossible to not stop in SOME sections or use the clutch heavily at last years Aussies. I was amazed how tough they were. If we had a no stop rule for post/classics surely the poor observer would find it challenging changing between the two rulings at the one trial. As a rider who started in 1980 I think the sections have certainly changed as the bikes have got better so has the difficulty level in each class. I tend to ride the older style but also like the new techniques, hard to stop evolution. I too made my TY clutch lighter and prefer it that way, each to their own. If someone could have ridden the 08 Aussies without some of the newer techniques (and not lost a bucket load of points) I sure would have liked to see that. Good topic though, I'm loving it.
Mark Beechey.



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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby David Lahey » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:43 am

Why I want to ride to no-stop rules:
I would prefer to ride to no-stop rules in Twinshock and Classic class, because those were the rules used around the world when Classic and Twinshock bikes were designed and built. The bikes were made to be ridden without stopping.
The adoption of the rule change that allows stopping has given a performance advantage to some Twinshock bikes but not others. This effect has the potential to reduce the variety of bikes being ridden in Twinshock class.
The adoption of the rule change has also led to the modification of bikes to take advantage of being allowed to stop. If we rode to the no-stop rule, there would be no advantage in making these modifications.
Personally to me it would mean that I would tend to ride my Cota 348 and Bultaco Sherpa Ts more than I currently do, and the other bikes less.

Why no-stop rules may not suit all Twinshock and Classic riders
A few years ago, I rode both modern and Twinshock bikes concurrently, and found that swapping bikes meant it took a fair bit of riding to retune my brain each time I swapped bikes. I've ridden only Twinshock bikes for a few years now, but I'm sure there are some riders who still swap back and forth between modern and Twinshock bikes. If there were different rules for Twinshock class, the retuning of the brain would take longer each time they changed bikes.

Riders who have invested many hours developing their riding technique to take advantage of the modern rules may not want to change how they ride.


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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby brt650 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:41 pm

I started riding trials again after a 28 year break. It's hard to get used to using the clutch within the section, but It's definetly an advantage as the sections seem to be tighter.I seem to charge through the section , where as others that have been riding using the new rules seem to do it easier.I think it's just a matter of getting used to and taking advantage of being able to slow down the process and have more time to line the bike up better. It's just when I'm moving I have to have less balance , so I need to work on my basic's. If there is going to be a rule back to non stop please do it quick so I don't waste what's left of my brain cells on something new. Thankyou for this topic :D



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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby Stu » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:57 pm

David,
You have brought up some valid points regarding this topic. It was highlighted this year to me when I attended the Summer Jam at Pacific Park. I took my TY and when I was shown various ways of attacking a log, I had to adjust my style to achieve it. No bouncing on the log, just lift the wheel and rock the bike over. I would like a new bike, but the TY is still my favourite and if I enjoy my Trials on it, thats all I need.

The no stop rule wont stop the top riders from showing their stuff , but it will allow us lesser ones to keep them in check. Are there enough Twin shocks out there for our own series?
I think a rider has to go back to basics to clean the sections or at the least no to 5 on every section. This is where a twin shock trials school would be handy, maybe once a year to remind new and old riders alike not to bounce the bike in the section at every turn, just flow through the turns.


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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby Steve Holzhauser » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:09 pm

I was only talking with a younger rider on Saturday at the rider briefing about this subject. He was riding the Easter 2 day event on a modern bike although he is a very accomplished twin shock rider. His family including mum and dad have been regular Trials participants before they started their family, so he and his brothers have been on bikes since nappys. He was not impressed with the thought of introducing the no stop ruling for twin shock events for the very reasons both Beech (evolution) and David (Time invested in technique) has refered to. All the younger twin shock riders have only grown up with the current rules and rely heavily on this, so they feel they are being disadvantaged by the talk of a change.
The remark of Ross about the poncing around is certainly true about some twinshock riders and in lots of section is quite unnecessary. To see the more accomplished twinshock riders like Mal Chapman, Brendon Johnston, Toby Coleman and Tony Bax to name just a few doing some of the modern moves on a twinshock is delight to see and an indication of the level of practice they have put in to achieve such a high standard of bike control with a machine that has no right to do these manovoures. Talk about hard work !

The markers of Trials sections that would have both sets of rules in place at the one meet would find it a real challenge to be fair, not only to the riders but to themselves.Their adjudication of a riders performance in a section is really such an important responsibility that is taken for granted by many. There are so many momentary pauses that could easily be pinged by a vigilent marker as a stop that is allowed by another more leniant marker. The old saying of "as long as they are consistant" does not help the clean no stop rider who has done his section well and earnt his score, only to see the "benefit" from a lenient marker going easy on a stopped rider who should have collected a 5. Markers are a precious commodity and this additional responsibility / burdon would really be stretching the friendship over a long full day of marking two different rulings.
I know back in the TY, Bully and Monty era many of the now (like me) older riders, the line was selected and a flowing style of section riding was the way to achieve the desired outcome. Now days the bikes have evolved so much that riding skills are not needed to much as the bikes only need be pointed in the right direction, much of the body language and positioning on the bike by riders is now not seen.

Since returning to competitive riding 18 years ago I have evolved to the new format and take it as the norm. Tuning the brain is what practice is all about and I now would find it extremly difficult to change such inground programming. To be real truthful I'm starting to find it difficult to remember the path of some of the longer sections we have to negotiate, so the stop allows you to break the sections up a little to compose and continue.

For me the new bikes are such a pleasure to ride and I continue to find a great deal of enjoyment riding them that I am not in the least tempted to go back to the past.
But, in saying that, if the change was to draw a large following of competitive former riders back, especially some of the guns I would think it a good thing, but the meet would need to cover the whole field as a No Stop Trial event.



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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby Starky » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:45 pm

David, I think you will get a fair deal of support here for a twinshock series. But I think we will get bogged down in a lot of dialogue. Can you put a survey at the top of the thread so we can indicate our preferences easily.

However please keep the dialogue going everyone because I am finding it extremely interesting to read the different points of view.

I for one support a twinshock series to the no stop rule.


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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby Twinshock » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:43 pm

I was discussing this subject with several riders over the weekend at the MTCQ 2 Day event and I didn't come across one of them who was against a non stop style for twinshock or Classic all believing that they should be ridden to the rules of the era,
ie. if the front wheel spindle ceases forward momentum the rider incurs a 5 point penalty.

Twinshock and Classic bikes have undergone vast technical advancement over the last ten years to the extent where special grades have been formulated for them overseas and the original unmodified bikes are a rare breed. Rules have been twisted and stretched to allow frame and engine mods that still fall within the regulations and now we have the younger breed of riders who want to ride them like a modern bike.,,,,,,, enoughs enough guys,, if you want to ponce around balancing for 5 minutes to get over a patch of damp grass then simply ride a modern bike and leave twinshocks to those who appreciate them.
I didn't complain when I got myself a Beta and always rode it non stop, mainly because I couldn't balance the F---king thing and it was the way I had always ridden bikes. To see guys hopping and bouncing them at the weekend was enough to make a purist give it away.
The other thing to consider is the section severity and from my experience over the last 45 years is that Clubman and the occasional C grade line is about what the average Twinshock rider would expect to encounter.
Observers have had to cope with Expert. A,B,C, C+, Clubman, Veteran, Classic, Masters, Intro and Mini over a period of time so I don't really think that a non stop rule would send them into a tailspin.
I have a twinshock in the shed nearly ready to go so this discussion is of keen interest to me.
I would advise any enthusiastic twinshock owner who wants the non stopping rule introduced to email or write to their state MotoTrials sub committee requesting that this be put on the agenda and if enough states Sub Comm's submit it to MA the more chance we have of getting it introduced.

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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby scrivo » Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:20 pm

I have only returned to competition after many many years away around 2 years ago. I have complete admiration watching guys like Mal Chapman and Steve Harvie who ride at Denman using modern techniques and taking on obstacles that I would not even dream of attempting. Riding this style is far harder on these bikes than moderns which means that older riders find it less enjoyable and it is very hard for riders returning to the sport to 'catch up'.

Personally I would like to see and ride the non stop rules as it fits with the bikes and means that people are not as tempted to irreversibly modify classic bikes. Classic events in most other forms of motorsport try and recreate the stlye, techniques, challenges and experience of the era the bike was built. Naturally changes are made but these should be minimal and related to safety (eg riding gear) and availability of equipment. I certainly enjoy the experience of riding in 'my' era. Call me old fashioned but if I wanted to ride modern style there is already Masters and Verterns to cater for this.

I realise that it could cause problems in mixed events (modern/classic). It may even require seperate section markers. At present, and I acknowledge that I have very limited first hand experience although I have been told by several others involved, the Classic numbers at NSW state rounds have been low while several riders have moved from the classics to Veterens so that the enjoyment level increases and the toll on their body goes down. These riders have been riding since the '70s and where riding classic but have moved to moderns. They still have their classics but find limited appeal and opportunity to ride them. This is not what twin shocks should be about.

If we allow modern riding styles why not modern equipment eg flat slide carbies on '74 TY's or modern forks on pre 65's. I have seen TY's with cut frames to mimic moderns and while I acknowledge the skill, determination and ingenuity involved it also means that another classic has basically gone. Attracting young riders to Classics by allowing modern riding rules is not in the best interest of our sport as the very essence of twin shocks is the bikes and that era. That should be the attraction not just to increase numbers by offering an easy entry.

An example would be allowing road racing slick tyres on pre 75 classic road racers so that young riders could easily adapt to the bikes instead of learning the challenge of limited grip on treaded tyres. Slicks would allow them to use modern riding styles on these old bikes. That is not in the spirit of the event.

VMX and Classic road racing stick strickly to the spirit of the era the bike was originally designed for and their fields are massive and have grown to the extent that many meetings are over subscribed. They have stand alone meetings that are often more keenly attended by riders than modern events.

Many people have multiple cars (even manuals and autos), multiple bikes (MX, road even push) and some people even have multiple homes with different addresses. Humans are amazingly adaptable I don't really think having different rules for modern and twin shock trials bikes will alter evolution in any significant way

Just my two cents (well maybe a little more than two cents) worth. I am just out their to have fun and possibly take me back a few (well a lot) of years. I will continue to ride 'non stop' because I fall over when I stop!!! :oops:



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Re: Twinshock class run to no-stop rules

Postby Tee-Why » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:43 am

To touch on some of the comments, Scrivo, your spot on with your observations on mods to bikes and the facts with other classic codes.

Its difficult to say whether non-stop rules (NSR) will preserve twinshock and classic events, as many of the other comments have pointed out in regards to observing and current rules.

But to be fair, the NSR should be ok if its a dedicated event. At the Nationals, that would be hard to apply. But in the future, say the rules change again for some reason, do we just accommodate that then as accepted practice, and drop the past styles?

With intent to preserve the class, NSR should be adopted or considered for the event, and all moderns riding comply. At the moment its the other way round, and one of the reasons I choose to ride Club grade on a twinshock as it suits the bike. But course setters are not looking to accommodate these bikes or riders, but intent on setting a harder course than last weeks ride.

I saw a number of older riders drop back a grade or retire or drop out of riding due to this.
I tried to get twinshock numbers up to encourage more participants to simply enjoy a twinshock ride and the challenge of it (on a modern course). But it was too hard to change the way of the club for proper support with modern bikes being the majority.

Funny enough, the Scott Trial run over here in the west mainly for modern, run under NSR and many self observed sections, all the riders snapped to it by a lap, and by the second day not one complaint, funny hey!


I would rather push my twinshock than ride a modern!


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