pre-65 Spanish?

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Geoff Lewis
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pre-65 Spanish?

Postby Geoff Lewis » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:31 pm

Hi All, After the fallout and discussions re. last years contraversial win in Classics on a so called 1964 model Sherpa 'T' , I have been asked as to what changes( if any ) Classic riders (there's not many of us left)feel there should be made to the rules. I have been asked by the Vic trials sub committee to comment on any such changes. As reluctant as I am to become embroiled in what I know will be a contentious subject, I feel as though I must get back to them on this matter soon as I was asked some time ago. I would like now to canvas some opinion. It is quite clear to me that the majority of classic riders in Victoria at least, would like a return to the NO Spanish rule or at least some tightening of the eligability process to exlude such bikes as might have been built in 1964 but clearly werent.And yes, I know that most of the Pre-65 bikes out there are pushing the envelope component wise with fiddle forks(Jap guts), keihins etc. How do others feel? Are we ever likely to see another Spanish machine in Classics anyway? Should the scrutineering process be more rigorous and perhaps an expert scrutineer appointed well in advance of an event so that the weeding out process can be started before there are problems? Should there be a list of eligable components like Classic Motorcross? Any other Ideas? I hope people will post their thoughts and opinions on the forum.
Regards Geoff.


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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby David Lahey » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:24 pm

Many issues have been raised by Geoff here. I'm going to have an initial go at posting my thoughts about eligibility of motorcycles in era based classes.

In any sort of process, the degree to which the process can be controlled or managed, is limited to what can be measured. The common saying is that "ïf you can't measure it, you can't control it"
In the case of motorcycles being examined by scrutineers, there are few things that can practically be "measured".

Geoff mentioned fork internals being modernised to give a better action, but appearing era-correct externally. This is a perfect example of not being able to measure something. Other examples that apply to pre-65 bikes are modern motor internals and even magnesium and titanium components, made as replicas of external components that were cast iron or steel on the original bike. When painted, these exotic metals can appear identical to the standard heavyweight components.

The list of things that could be done to a bike to give components the outward appearance of being era-correct is endless. In fact with modern technology, lighter, better performing replicas of every important component of a bike can be, and are being, produced.

I'm not saying that this is something good. I'm just saying that scrutineering by external appearance will never prevent people making changes to their bike for whatever reason they have.

What can we measure/control?
The most successful techniques that have been adopted over the years for classifying bikes include:
Motor displacement (usually measured after the event)
Bike mass lower limit (minimum weight rule introduced in the early 1970s for MX bikes)
Suspension (wheel) travel (current Australian pre-75 MX rule)
Two or four valves per cylinder (lightweight speedway cars)
Boosting or natural aspiration (lightweight speedway cars)
Number of cylinders (superbikes)
Air or liquid cooling
Drum or disc brakes
Control tyres
Wheel diameter (kids MX)
Fuel type

All these things can be measured and controlled by scrutineers, but are any of these techniques useful for controlling the performance of pre-65 trials bike?


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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby Chris Leighfield » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:27 pm

Of course, David makes a good point and there will not, except on rare occasions, be a scrutineer who knows what MoMS says about Classic Bike specifications or in fact how to recognise components which are or are not eligible. The story doesn't end there though.
We must unfortunately accept "out of site. out of mind", that we can not determine the specification of internal parts and therefore these are out of our control. When it comes to externally visible parts though, the majority of riders know what is and what isn't permissible.
Shortly after '09 Nationals, I saw a lot of passionate discussion on this specification issue. If those involved wish to carry their passion through to the limit, they are quite entitled to lodge official protests against machines having non-permitted parts. With the back-up of MoMS, the offending machine(s) will be excluded from the results.
It may not even be necessary to lodge a protest but just to have a quiet word (whilst armed with a copy of MoMS) in the Scrutineer's ear.
So let's get the rules put in place and have riders themselves take some responsibility for ensuring that these are adhered to.
If sufficient numbers of riders are prepared to band together and take this action, it won't be very long before offenders realise they are outcasts and fall into line. Not being one of the crowd plus not being permitted to ride doesn't go down well with hardly anyone.



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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby David Lahey » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:24 pm

Geoff Lewis wrote:It is quite clear to me that the majority of classic riders in Victoria at least, would like a return to the NO Spanish rule or at least some tightening of the eligability process to exlude such bikes as might have been built in 1964 but clearly werent.And yes, I know that most of the Pre-65 bikes out there are pushing the envelope component wise with fiddle forks(Jap guts), keihins etc. How do others feel? Are we ever likely to see another Spanish machine in Classics anyway?
Regards Geoff.

I was working on making a pre-65 Trials bike from a basket case 1963 Bultaco MX bike (M3) but that project is on hold until I am sure I would be able to ride it in MA Trials competitions.


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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby Twinshock » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:59 pm

Good on ya Geoff for starting this topic off, I think it needs some serious airing.
Where did the date of the pre 65 class come from ?, who decided on 65, perhaps they made a slight error which is visible with the benefit of hindsight.
I believe the class was started to include an era of bikes which really came to an end around 65 namely the British bike manufacturers industry and when their demise was iminent Sammy Miller ( and a few others) saw an opportunity to develop the foreign machines and a new era started.
This is what Classic bikes are about, British bikes, not the Spanish or Jap machines that started to creep in around that time and if they are excluded to compete in a separate Class that is where they should be,,, let them campaign for their own class or compete in Twinshock or post classic.
As for the special fiddle bits that are visible or provable let those guys compete in a Pre 65 "Specials" class like they do in the UK but until there are enough of those bikes around then they should compete in Twinshock.
I too was horrified when a Bultaco won Classic last year but as my mate Chris L points out anyone could have put a protest in to test the validity of that machine, but did they ?.
If I owned that bike and it was legitimate I would be busting my gut to slap the bike details up on this forum to shut us all up and prove to everyone that its a genuine Pre 65 bike.
Nevertheless, I'm absolutely, totally, vehemently, overwhelmingly opposed and against Spanish bikes being allowed to compete in Classic class which should be redefined to "PRE 64", that'll fix em !!!
Lets hear some more comments
Cheers
Twinshock AKA Roger Galpin


Roger Galpin

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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby David Lahey » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:55 pm

At last! Thankyou Roger a bit more discussion going on this great topic

If the intention is to only allow pre-64 British bikes in a class, then surely that limitation should form part of the name of the class? It needs to be called something that defines it better than "pre-64". After all the idea is to exclude non-British.......... (I deleted a lot of interesting class names I thought of - it's dangerous doing forum postings after a glass of wine)

I worried that multiple classes for an entrant field that is so small already could be a bit problematic. So far the classes suggested include
"British pre-65 specials" (almost every pommy bike currently competing in pre-65)
"Non-British pre-65" (a Honda, a couple of CZs and a Bultaco)
"Standard British pre-65" (very thin on the ground from what I've seen - apart from Gristy's bikes)

Roger how would making it a pre-64 class prevent my 1963 Bultaco model 3 from competing? Do you really mean all Spanish bikes should not be allowed or just Bultaco Sherpa T model 10s?


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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby Twinshock » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:00 am

David, I define it more as an era and I believe the original conception of the class was designed for the era of AJS, BSA, Matchless, Triumph, James, Fanny B's, Villiers and a few I can't think of after numerous Johnnie W green labels.
The problem is who is around these days to confirm what I think or tell me I'm talking crap but the name of the class ie. "Pre 65" was, as I said before, in hindsight a bit loose.

Yes, sorry Dave, no Spanish definitely, they don't belong in that era of bikes, I lived through the sixties riding old pommie stuff over there and when Sam turned up on the Sherpa it turned the trials world upside down to start the revolution of lightweight Spanish and then Jap two strokes.
Even the Tiger Cubs, C15's, 250 Enfields and Villiers made the big old heavtweights obsolete and how many of those do you see around these days. If we let the Spanish lightweights into "pre 65" then there will be a few of the afore mentioned being parked up next to the AJS's and suddenly there will be a flood of pre 65 Ossa's appearing, oh, and don't forget that December 1964 Montessa that I've got stashed away in my shed and I have enough bits to restore my 1963 RLS Suzuki, and then there's my 1962 TY for which I attach pictures.
A bit tongue in cheek Dave but you get my drift.
Cheers
Rog


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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby BOGWHEEL » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:49 am

Model 10 Sherpas belong in the lounge room anyway :lol:



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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby GHRC » Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:52 pm

Hi all , I have only been riding Pre 65 for a year now so i don't have the history in the class of people like Twinshock , but i was fortunate enough to be able to go to the nationals last year . I knew there was a Bultaco entered but didn,t think much of it , as always , with me i just wanted to ride my bike . It was only a few weeks later that I realised that it was such a big deal . I managed to run 2nd to the Bultaco that weekend . A few poeple have said somebody should have protested , I have heard that some poeple wanted to but figured that the entry was accepted so that was it . The thing that I wonder is , if somebody had protested I wonder what would have happened , I was only a couple of cars away from the Bultaco in the pits and on both days as I was having a rest after my first lap , if I am not mistaken , the bike was being loaded up and left the property , so how can you protest a bike that wasn,t there after the trial ? Isn,t there a protest period after the event ? I didn't even get a chance to congratulate him on his win . =D> =D> =D>
So where do I stand ? Obviously I wish there wan't a Spanish bike there !!!! but there was and he won . As far as this topic , Twinshock made a lot of good points as a rider who has ridden these bikes when they were the bikes to ride in the place where it all started , so he is speaking from a lot of experience and passion . Our biggest trouble is the fact that we are in small numbers .


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Re: pre-65 Spanish?

Postby mel&themonty » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:23 pm

Sounds like bike racism to me!

Honestly, do you want to nit pick this class to death? It'll all end up you can each have your own class so you can all take home a trophy. Then will the bitching stop?

I've been riding with the Twinshock guys in Denman for 10 years now and I know that we all just ride for fun and to show off our bikes that we've spent time restoring. We certainly don't sit around picking each others bikes to bits. Where's the fun in that?

Also, someone did protest the Bultaco at the Nationals, previous to the event, but it was allowed in by Bob McGlinchy following many phone calls, paperwork being forwarded and even a call to Sammy Miller.

I was unaware that 1st place in the Classic Championship came with a one million dollar prize. :twisted:

Less whinging more riding people!




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