Cub barrels.

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Jon V8
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Cub barrels.

Postby Jon V8 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:59 am

I remember reading on here a conversation about Cub riders having to use the earlier round barrels to comply with Aussie trials regs.When I was at the Telford Classic show earlier in the month there was a stand there selling new alloy round barrels fitted with Westwood liners. Have a look here;
http://www.upbuk.co.uk/shop/engine/82-a ... inder.html
I have nothing to do with them,I dont even have a Cub,(Got rid of that years ago...) but I wondered if it was any help to riders struggling with old parts in high temps.(Just jealous as its freezing here)



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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby TriCub » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:28 am

Some nice parts there.
The Australian rules call for all major parts to be pre 65. That includes all engine and gearbox external castings, later parts can be used if they are visualy indistinguishable from the period item. Those rules put the square finned stuff out but an alloy barrel would be ok if it was an exact external copy of the original oval ones. Question, is the alloy versions an exact copy? Bit hard to tell from the photo but it looks like they have less fins. Originals have 9 fins but I could only count 8 in the photo of the square version, can't tell if the oval has the same number.
If anyone plans to buy one for competion it would be wise to ask for a few comparision photos of old v new before ordering.



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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby Geoff Lewis » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:21 am

Hi All, The term 'visually indistinguishable' is in my opinion still open to a little interpretation, for example, I take it to mean for the average person ( competitor) not to notice particularly at a casual glance and not necessarily to be subject to a painstaking examination by an expert. ie. counting the number of fins or checking casting numbers etc. The MOMS and MA remind us to adopt what is resonable, I think we need to be sufficiently pragmatic to be able to allow replica parts even if they are not exact copies because , like it or not, these old bikes are wearing out and if one could order an original barrel from your local Triumph dealer who could get it sent priority from Meridan there would be no problem, but we can't. My opinion is that even square barrels look OK on a Tiger Cub. I may be in the minority however. What do others think?
Regards Geoff.


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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby TriCub » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:15 pm

Geoff, I agree that to get classic class going again we need to be a bit more resonable. The change to the carb rule is a start but our MA people have proven to be less than reasonble in the past.
We need to be a little carefull with replica parts if the UK seen is used as an example. The replica parts in use over there can convert a 150kg 500 single into a state of the art sub 100kg machine if you have enough money.
With these barrels in question. The main reason to buy one in my opinion would be to gain a weight and cooling advantage over the original cast iron items, that would be regarded as a performance advantage. The cost of them is way more than the cost to resleeve the worn out original back to new again so it is not even the most economical way out.

The square finned bits are a dileema as the are already a few out there in use. The factory made these changes to get cooler running more reliable motors which in trials is a performance advantage. Due to a misprint or typo in the "Tiger Cub Bible" they have in the past been allowed as pre 65. A couple of people have said to me that due to the fact that we let them in they can't be kicked out know! If that is the case then we had better let the Spanish bikes back in as there were several people with bikes in use or being built for pre 65 that no longer have a use for their machines despite being allowed in the MOM's for quite a few years.



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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby Twinshock200 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:11 pm

Here we go again, Cub Barrels.
I was also at the Telford show and inspected the UPB stuff mentioned by JonV8 and agree that the weight saving is considerable over a standard cast iron barrel, but thats all it is, a weight saving, just as alloy sprockets are a weight saving over the original steel sprockets and alloy levers are lighter than chrome ones, alloy rims instead of chrome and I could go on,,, and on,,, and on.
Tricub taks about a performance advantage with weight saving but surely increasing the capacity of an engine from 199cc to 250cc is more of a perfomance advantage than was ever possible in the 60's and I know from talking to guys involved with Triumph this capacity increase was never done to works bikes apart from a +060 thou rebore.
I have been back in the UK for nearly two years now and compete every weekend during the winter in BMCA events where we get between 40 & 50 riders on British bikes every weekend. None of these bikes would be eligible for a State or National event in Aus including my own UK Cub and even though we all know these bikes are a bit dodgy, nobody bloody well cares, we just have 40/50 guys out there enjoying their bikes and having fun.
With the pedantic attitude of MA and certain guys in Aus the Classic class has gradually dwindled to the extent that you hardly get enough riders to call it a class in most events but maybe with less opposition some people have a better chance of winning !!
Anyway, the good news is that I am coming back to Aus March 14th and will dust off my trusty Aus Cub and ride a few events during the six weeks I am over there,,,,,,, scrutineers allowing,
C Ya soon
Rog G


Pre 65 Classic bikes

TriCub
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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby TriCub » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:36 pm

The only advantage being weight!!
If weight is not a performance issue why are we not all riding around 500 pomy singles?
Roger if you get out your "Tiger Cub Bible" you will see that the American's were using 250cc Cub's for their flat track racers in the early 60's. If the poms did have the ability to increase the size of a Cub engine in the 60's it doesn't say much for their engineering skills.

Like it or not we have a rule book for our class that tells us what parts are considered major. These include all external engine castings ,frames ect. If we replaced all of these parts with light weight replicas made out of exotic metals like Magnessium and Crome Moly would the bike have a performance advantage over the stock machine?



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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby Twinshock200 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:55 am

George, hopefully I will see you at a trial riding your 250cc Cub with its Keihin carby when I get back there if you've still got it, and we can have a meaningful discussion on this subject without resorting to "pomy insults".
Its lucky they introduced the "any Carby" rule for 2013, your bike will now be eligible for Classic events, we might see you out more often !!!!
The day the rule book degenerates to the level of pathetically counting the number of fins on a barrel will be the day I hang up my boots and go touring
Looking forward to catching up with everyone in March
Cheers


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Jon V8
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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby Jon V8 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:43 am

I regret starting this thread,my intention with it was purely to help riders of old bikes to keep them going - not to start a row over what is or isnt eligible.Surely the reason we join these forums is to further our knowledge of trials and to help each other.I simply dont understand why anyone would want to use this forum,(Which has a great bunch of very knowledgable riders) to push some kind of Poms V Aussie thing either,we are allies at peace with each other,some of my best mates are Aussy,and I get out there to visit family and friends as often as I can.We also host visiting Aussies who are over on holiday too. My club will also give a free ride to ANY overseas vistitors who give us a little notice of their holiday dates etc.
I just love riding old trials bikes,Japanese,Spanish,Italian and English - makes no odds to me. :(



Twinshock200
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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby Twinshock200 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:22 pm

Don't worry JonV8, George and I differ on some interpretations of the Aussie Classic rules and what should or shouldn't be allowed but he has done some great work on my Aussie Cub and is an excellent engineer, as for the Aussie V Poms stuff thats always been there.
I will be taking lots of Pommie "secret parts" info back with me in March but the problem in Aus is the time and freight costs adding to the conversion rate factor which all makes it a bit expensive to buy these sort of parts that you raised in your original post.
Cheers


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Re: Cub barrels.

Postby Geoff Lewis » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:46 am

Hi All, It seems the replica parts issue has opened a few old wounds. I will leave the Pom V Aussie debate alone for the moment , I will be assisting a NZ Pom this Vic trials season (that will make two of us in classics in Vic!), and concentrate on giving my opinion on a few issues raised. I firmly believe having replica parts available to keep your old bike in top fettle is a good thing. In Australia they must be a very close facsimile of the original so that cuts out a lot of the British produced parts, aftermarket frames etc. any way, so I don't see a real problem there. How much someone wants to spend on their pride and joy is not really anyones business unless they step outside the Moms with their improvements and then its up to the stewards and other competitors to haul them up (I prefer to spend as little as possible). The Spanish issue still seems to be festering along in some peoples minds but remember that the ban on Spanish machines existed for a long time and was dropped from the MOMS due to an oversight. The issue was brought to a head, not by a Spanish machine, but a Spanish machine which was not eligible by its manufacture date not I might add by its prototypes build date. A complete ban on Spanish machines was a simple answer to a very complex problem. If enough people who are involved in classic trials want Spanish pre 65 machines included then they know the channels are there to re instate them in to the MOMS. I'm ok with it. 100kg 500cc singles ? 200kg 500cc singles? I'd be glad to see any around here, I'd love to see the Heavyweight class make a comeback! They must be out there somewhere.
I wonder what people think of bikes like four speed Bantams, Sprite and Greeves Anglians competing in pre 65. Strictly by our rules not eligible but acceptable? I'm ok with it. Frame modifications such as Cub subfames grafted on to various other bikes? Here in Victoria, Classic trials is dead but not quite buried. Twinshock is about to follow with key individuals retiring from the class. Changing the rules etc down here will really just be like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Unfortunately it seems Classics is turning into a class for people who just want to pick up a title at the Aussies or States and don't really support the class at all. The end of an era (again!)
Regards Geoff.


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