clear up a grey matter

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mants
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clear up a grey matter

Postby mants » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:43 am

Hey all
Was wondering if you could all clear up abit of a grey area regards observing.

In Australia don't we follow the FIM rules regards trials?

When your riding a section and you touch a marker with your tyre slightly touching it but neither the marker or metal holder moves or needs replacing is that a 5??

This is from the FIM website:

The rider or the machine comes into direct contact with a marker and as a
result it is removed or is knocked down, breaks, is removed or is knocked
down causing the Observer to reposition it.

Reading that it seems to me it's ok to touch the marker and holder as long as it doesn't need fixed back in position.

I was given a 5 apparently due to motorcycling Australia rules but I can't find those anywhere on their website and if we follow FIM rules this doesn't make any sense.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

Cheers



David Lahey
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby David Lahey » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:58 am

The MA rules don't have to be the same as the FIM rules
This is from the MA MOMs, page 281
"Riding over, touching or riding on or dislodging a grade marker for a riders own
grade. 5 5 5"
There is a link to the MA MOMs on the home page of Trials Australia under the dropdown "EVENTS". Look for "Manual of M/C Sport"
Selecting the locations of the section markers is an important factor in the smooth running of an event, and it is best to avoid placing one where it is likely to be touched by a bike tyre, but this is not always possible


relax, nothing is under control

TerrY
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby TerrY » Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:00 pm

The FIM rules also change from time to time as do MA rules.
In 2014, I was an observer at the World Titles in Victoria and we were given the rules at that time. The rider only had to touch the marker to get a 5. In one of the lower grades a rider hit the marker and left a black mark on the white marker. I gave him a 5. Another rider came to me and asked why I had given that rider a 5. I was able to point out the black mark on the marker and that was the stone end of that.
It can be a grey area but fortunately it was clear then with the black mark. It can be hard as the rider probably doesn't feel the marker and maybe the extra bit has been added to the rule to make it easier for everybody.
Trust this helps.

Cheers,
TerrY



cota
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby cota » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:58 pm

The touching of the marker is certainly a rule of frustration when, unless the marker is ridden on, dislodged, broken, chipped or black tyre marks are left on the marker (as per TerrY) there is no real evidence that the marker was actually touched - other than that the word of the observer is a statement of fact. The touching of a marker by any part of the bike or rider means that the observer must be in a position to view all markers on each side of the bike at any time to be sure that neither marker of a gate is ever touched and to ensure consistency in scoring. That is completely unrealistic and a huge imposition on the most precious and vital volunteers in our sport - the observers. A marker that is dislodged is easy to interpret and provide evidence, and if one of the wheels rides over, rides above or on the wrong side of a marker or marker support (2nd part of FIM Rules section initially quoted by mants) is reasonably easy to view and judge (yes I am a rider and an observer).

But alas, while you can touch a boundary tape and stretch it considerably (as long as you do not break it) there is no penalty but touch a marker with the whisker of a brand new tyre and 5 is coming your way. Submission for rule changes to MA have been made in the past (have a look at the rule change requests on MA website) to make the rule more workable but not supported. I do agree David that the positioning of the gate markers is the key to avoid the problem and that needs be considered by that other very precious commodity - the section setters (and I do my bit too). The best way then is for the riders to volunteer to help set out sections and help get those section gate markers in positions that do not detract from the challenge of the gate but also do not create situations that the a slight twitch of the marker by a tyre whisker detracts from the brilliant skill of the rider.

Cheers


I don't need help - I can fall off all by myself.

Steve Holzhauser
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby Steve Holzhauser » Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:19 pm

Mants your question is one that has been around for quite a while. Cota has explained the situation very well why this fixed marker touch resulting in a 5 penalty is flawed. This maximum penalty of a complete section failure for such an occurrence is highlighted by the fact you are free to ride along a boundary tape with your leg in direct contact with it and in cases even stretching it to gain an advantage and seems to be such a contradiction to have two such conflicting interpretations of acceptability. Another tape infringement that comes to mind is the fouling of a boundary tape under your fork leg or when front wheel or rear wheel hopping for positioning engages the tape in the knobs of the tyre but you are free to use either your foot or hand to remove it without a penalty being applicable. An observers interpretation of a touch may result in unneeded strain on both the observer and the rider and its relevance to the out come at the end of an event can certainly hinge on such decisions, maybe it is time for another look at it's application or at least the severity of the penalty.



mants
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby mants » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:38 am

Overall i think the rule should be changed and why MA wont listen is crazy.

Guess it just means ill have to ride better and make sure i dont let the edge of my tyre touch any markers =D>



PA
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby PA » Wed Mar 02, 2016 3:54 pm

A few riders touch a marker but don't dislodge it so receive no penalty. You ride past the maker and touch it but as it is now loose it falls and you receive a 5. Is that fair?



BrentonW
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby BrentonW » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:23 pm

I watched observers over the years prior to the change of “touching your own marker” was introduced – the interpretation of “Dislodged” was always questionable and often argued – best left the way the current rule is – easy, clear and concise.



mants
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby mants » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:59 am

PA wrote:A few riders touch a marker but don't dislodge it so receive no penalty. You ride past the maker and touch it but as it is now loose it falls and you receive a 5. Is that fair?


Yeah stupidness

Apparently i touched the marker but it didn't move so was given a 5

Ended up costing me the trial by 1 point



mants
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Re: clear up a grey matter

Postby mants » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:04 am

BrentonW wrote:I watched observers over the years prior to the change of “touching your own marker” was introduced – the interpretation of “Dislodged” was always questionable and often argued – best left the way the current rule is – easy, clear and concise.


not really anything clear about it, how can an observer manage to see all markers through a section, they cant unless they're running about like a lunatic behind the rider and therefore annoying the rider as well.

And also whats clear that you can touch a boundary tape and move it as long as it doesnt break and if you dont put your feet down its a clear, but yet if you just touch a marker arrow in the slightest you get the maximum penalty.

Nothing clear about and in all a totally stupid rule.

wheres the sense?????




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