section time limit for experts

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time limits for experts

Poll ended at Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:44 am

yes, time the experts, speed up the whole trial
15
83%
no, the observers have enough to do
2
11%
no, i like watching experts balance for 30 seconds before each obstacle
1
6%
 
Total votes: 18

jamie
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section time limit for experts

Postby jamie » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:44 am

have you even been at an event when there are a few experts or a grade riders competing?

have you ever struggled to finish on time, even when the time limit is 5 or 6 hours?

is there ever queues, particularly towards the end of the day?

the solution...

at open events set a time limit for the expert level riders to complete riding each section.

elsewhere in the trials world the time limit is set at 90 seconds per section. failure to complete the section in the time limit incurs a five.

to avoid the outcry the time limit could be introduced in the first year as a separate column on the punch card, designated by a T. the T would only be punched if the rider failed to complete the section in time. the riders normal score would also be punched and the outcome of the trial would only be influenced by the time T's on count back.

once the expert riders have had a season to get used to riding to the clock, the time limit could be enforced.

there may be some concern that a rider will attempt an obstacle before they are ready, some would say the experts need more time. i would say set up faster or use your feet.

sections will need to be set with the time limit in mind. once riders get used to riding to the clock it is amazing how far an expert can travel in a very short time. probably be a good idea not to observe or spectate from near the end cards!!

the other issue to consider is the often neglected observers. clubs would need to supply a whistle and a count down timer (as opposed to a stop watch). the whistle is blown initially to signify the entry of a rider to the section and the commencement of the time and then again, either at the completion of the section by the rider or at the end of the 90 seconds, whichever comes first.

most experts these days ride with minders or other experts, these other individuals can assist the rider with timekeeping.

have attached a poll, please vote and add your comments



David Lahey
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Postby David Lahey » Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:59 pm

The poll needs more options:

Run events as no-stop

Time limit for everybody - it's not just experts that procrastinate



Smiddy
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Postby Smiddy » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:30 am

Hi Jamie,
Honestly, this isn't going to be an effective solution to speeding up a event. You need to remember that 80% of the entry compete riding Clubman-B grade lines; at least in Victoria, it's not often that A/X riders take over 2:30 even when not on the clock.
The bigger problem, at least here, is section length. There is simply too much to get through in a section; I'd estimate about 40% more distance to cover and 60% more steps/drops/obstacles/turns compared to the rest of the field due to the extra compactness of the sections.
In theory, I actually agree with the introduction of time limits 100% in order to train riders to ride alongside the world rules, but the sections need to change to make sure we're not going to kill ourselves trying to get through the sections; the reason I ride trials is because it's NOT motorcross.

Better solutions;
* Decrease the ratio of entrants-per-section (run more sections); this will diretly mean shorted queues and less waiting in general.
* Shorten the sections for ALL grades; less distance in the section means less time in the sections, and coupled with more sections will mean just as much section time but with less waiting.
Using these in tandem may require some extra observers, but they will have more time without riders in-section causing less burn-out. Anyone reading this post observe occasionally? How long does it take you to eat your lunch while observing???

I know these are overly simplistic, but trials at the upper levels is becoming overly dangerous as it stands; having to move quickly through sections as long as they currently are, and as dangerous as they currently are, will cause major accidents!!!
Up to 2001 I'd only heard of Robyn Ferrioli breaking his leg at a practice at Oakleigh in 1988. Since then, I know of 2 broken ankles, 4 wrists, 2 acromioclavicular seperations, 5 broken ribs... the list goes on.
Just this year in Victoria, we've had Matt Newland leave the sport in part due to increasing danger, and I'm increasingly likely to follow suit. I'm of the opinion that minders should be there to instruct and help the rider, not provide cushions.
Anyway, that's my two cents; if you want a solution to make getting through in time easier, change the sections, not the riders.



ajharry
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Think quicker...

Postby ajharry » Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:06 am

Jamie,
I'm all for time limits and following the FIM rule as practical.
I think the comments regarding danger of section etc are way off. Australia had the pleasure of a visit from some Uk lads recently. I'm sure they could travel a fair way in 90 secs when required?
On danger if the 'rules' are made more difficult ie stop for a one, non stop, 90 / 60 secs or whatever then section standard can be altered - and often is. All these people breaking this and that probably would have done that anyway, were they riding under timed sections in the accident? The expert sections are longer and bigger because they are meant to be better...
Timed sections are better for skill and spectators alike, I've competed with the rule here in the UK for some time and it has changed the 'tempo' considerably. And no, not quite motocross, although can get exciting.
If Australia wants to get on to group a then we need to up the sections standard, length AND lower the time...
On the whole I doubt it will help much on the queing in Aussie. No reason why you can't have timed sections at nationals, state champs only as per UK? Would not be hard to implement, yes a standard stop watch will do, just look at it when the rider has finished the section and if says 1:32, big cinco for you, no arguementzz - it's the way forward...
Adrian


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wazzawood
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Postby wazzawood » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:21 pm

I can't see why this part of the sport has been done away with in oz.

Did the trials pioneers of Australia just forget about the whole timing thing?
Maybe the sundial was broken, or it was cloudy?

More sections would mean we need more observers, which would usually mean more competitors giving up their ride.

As for the danger factor: "should you feel unsure about any of the sections..." :roll:


So is there a reason we don't have time limits?
I'm all for it.

I wonder if any expert rider would, knowing a competitor is waiting, take a long as they can to ride a section? thats not what i base my opinion on but might stir something up. :twisted:



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Postby whoopachang » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:59 am

Good topic Jamie, I've been waiting for this one to turn up.

As it has been said, it is really quite amasing how quick a rider can move through a section when required without riding like a motorcrosser. Yes the sections can be set accordingly but i would say that the length of sections here are of a good length for a 90 second time limit and can be done quite easily in that time.

It is hard to compare with the rest of the world unless you have been over there and seen it for yourself but im sure if you ask anyone who has watched a world round or indeed any other trial they would say that the sections are definately no shorter than ours and they have just as many obstacles. This is just another area that we are letting ourselves down on if we want to compete with the rest of the world.

Danger??????? The lower grade riders wont be affected by the rule change at all because the average time for a lower grade rider to finish a section is probably about 40-50 seconds. As for the upper level riders, by the time they are able to ride these grades they should have learnt how to fall off and ride safely anyway!

Thats my thoughts on the topic. I will enjoy hearing what everone else has to say.[/i]



tomo
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time limits....

Postby tomo » Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:33 pm

Great topic, about time this one came up. Not sure whether everyone was aware but at last years Victorian Titles the expert and A grade riders rode under the FIM rules. So there was a time limit invovled as well as the normal no backwards movement etc....
The section setters were aware of the fact that there was to be a time limit and the sections were set accordingly. Saying that though, the sections were very much identical to what would of been set for a non timed event. The excitement factor for all the spectators was greatly increased, the riders also! As i was riding X at this event i can personally say that it was great to have an added dimension to the trial. It really showed the riders who were fit and the riders who weren't as much so....
There is some more danger invovled due to rushing in some parts, but saying that, all the massive steps or tight technical parts are still ridden within our own limits and at a safe pace. Generally it's the ground between the obstacle's where the time is made up not risking life and limb perched on an ugly rock.
I personally would love to see the implementation of a time limit for all state and national trials at A/X level it brings that little extra to an already fantastic spectator sport.

tomo :mrgreen:



Warren Laugesen
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Postby Warren Laugesen » Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:40 pm

Yes Tomo, I agree with all that you said. I loved riding the Super trial under time. The only thing i can see is that it will widen the gap between the good riders and the average riders who will find it more difficult to complete all of the obstacles within the time. Go for it guys as it will improve your sport at the top end over time both Nationally and Internationaly.



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Postby Mc Alex » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:48 pm

well i think freestyle trials is the solution. We have to take trials to the next levels by doing backflips and stuff in a section. The spectators need sum crazyness.

Well about time thingo, its just not every rider has a minder, dad or mate to ride with on the day and it gets scary for some riders. It would b sweet mad if a fellow rider could be able to mind for a rider and still be able to go after that rider in the section instead of lining up another ten yearsin the que.

Yeah but freestyle trials in the middle of the trial or after all the way hommies it would solve everything, think of the crazyness. skeff bros.

Represent'n Hilly, Fieldy Harvs and Darcmiester


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BJ
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Postby BJ » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:22 pm

Alex

What about this Idea!!

Have a trials X section for red plates that is not one of the normal sections or have a couple of endurotrials sections with just gates at each end with a time penalty. With the likes of enduroX, SuperX and Indoor trials maybe we can have some new sections where you are timed and scored for dabs.

Being a rider thats likes doing 10+km bush sprints and booting my own backend for putting a foot down I know there are ways to give good sections for the lower grades and still give the red plates a good challenge without holding up the works. The SSDT and the Scot seems to incorporate this concept to some degree.

Having seen the old UK TV program "Kickstart" I know there are ways to run events other than just what the MOM's say and still have a damn good trial. Sure let's make red plates ride to time but why not do some longer sections that have us all timed if we are going to burden observers with a stopwatch. A Trials Cross section or two like arena Enduro Cross might be good fun and entice a few enduro/trail riders over to our sport.

As I am such a shite trials rider and never seem to have the fittness to do anything better than a bodgey clubman ride maybe there are others like me that would benefit from different section layouts and a time penalty ?????

Not saying every trial but a place like 3Br or Glenmaggie or MtB or Anakie could host a "kickstart" type of event in Vic that would be a real buZZ with all of us under the stopwatch.


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