keep winning then go up!!!

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mickd
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keep winning then go up!!!

Postby mickd » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:19 am

let me say from the start we are only talking club level here...I know a lot of you out think the same way as i do and the fact is its about time some thing was done about it,and that is if your in the top 3 at most club events then go up a level and give the next person a chance cos at the end of the day its all about having fun,should the club do it !!! well thats for you to talk about in this topic cos if its down to the rider as it is now then they will never go up,if you go up when you should that makes it more fun the the next person etc , you know what its like now you know who will win as its the same person all the time and i hear you say its not about winning!!! i know that but it will encourage more up and coming riders of all levels, this also can be done on a points level ie when you get a certain amount of points then you go up!! well what do you think!!!!!!!!
all the best mdmick :D



David Lahey
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Postby David Lahey » Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:55 pm

Mickd, I know what you are on about here, but its not usually that simple. Here are a couple of issues to consider:

If a rider has to move up a grade after a certain number of wins or places or whatever, it is a certainty that eventually everyone will be in the top grade.

Some people are never going to be able to ride above a certain level for many reasons ie health issues, injury, age etc. If they are forced to move out of their enjoyment zone, they may well just stop competing.

In our club events, upgrading is up to the rider and has worked quite well for many years. Yes some people sometimes stay in a grade too long in the estimation of other riders, but eventually they realise it is not a very rewarding situation when their competitors keep going up to the next grade and leaving them behind.

Heres a f'rinstance:
An experienced and capable middle aged rider competes in club trials in C grade on a Twinshock bike and often but not always wins the grade. This rider has problem wrists from an old injury. The obstacles in C grade are OK for his wrists but B grade is usually too severe. The rider is restoring a 1990s bike with the intention of giving B grade a go, expecting that a lighter bike with better suspension will be easier on his wrists. When he is ready, he will give B grade a go.

Contrary to the bit about riders not upgrading unless pushed, the riders in our club upgrade themselves in a timely manner. For adult riders we run Novice, C, B and A grades and the numbers are currently about equal in each grade except Novice which is usually smaller.



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outfit65
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Postby outfit65 » Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:00 pm

Valid points here;
What is more frustrating is when a rider(s) rides above their grade all year and then drop down for the state championships, just to trophy hunt. It happened this year with a number of riders, who had ridden their class all year losing possible rostrum positions because of this.
Maybe state sub-committees should put in a by-law that states that if you ride over 50-60-70% (for example) of events during the year above your grade you are automatically regraded into that grade and can't drop back down for your states championships.
I would exempt the Australian Titles from this due to all classes not being available, so that is more changing classes due to circumstances, not hunting for trophies.
It might sound a bit harsh but if you have a new rider into the sport that rides Clubman all year and is on the edge of a podium and then 2-3 riders drop from 'C' grade for a titles it does deflate the new rider somewhat, especially if he rides out of his/her skin and finishes 4th, when it should have been 2nd because of the above circumstances.

food for thought????

cheers
outfit


Sidecars - its betta to have a swinger than fly solo!

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Postby David Lahey » Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:34 pm

That's an easy one outfit65.

Note that your State Title is an open event - not a closed-to-club trial like I was referring to.

Option 1
Run your state titles as a multi-round championship. We've just changed to a four round series in Qld. If people want to have a chance at winning a class they have to be prepared to ride the four events in that class.

Option 2
Enforce rider's gradings ie set up a requirement for riders to apply to the State Trials Sub-Commitee each time they want to upgrade or downgrade (as we do in Queensland).



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outfit65
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Postby outfit65 » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:04 pm

Thanks for the reply David.

We went to a one round title in 2004, like the Victorians, to try and get a few interstaters to come over the border and have a ride. To a certain degree it has worked, especially this year when we had over 10 interstaters have a ride.

My point is that even in a multi round championship the said 'trophy hunters' can, and are allowed to do it and there should be a by-law to prevent it happening, not only here but Australia wide.

Cheers
outfit


Sidecars - its betta to have a swinger than fly solo!

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BJ
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Postby BJ » Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:17 pm

What if???

As a middle aged rider that has come to trials late in life I am like many lower level riders. This year I have been offically graded C or should I say Veteran. Last year I rode a number of trials on the blue line and I can say it was way too larger step in skills. The tougher trials saw me only tackling 5 out of 10 sections and others where the best I could do was two messy threes and fives for the rest. There was one trial where I could ride most sections and get one or two cleans but other than that there was nothing but tough times..... I have even seen Veterans riding in pairs to catch for each other!!!!

Since last season I have broken a rib or two (on a bike) and also an ankle (not a bike injury) which has seen me not ride for the past 3 months. I don't want to ride clubman this season but the blue line is way too hard for some of with injury problems that don't go away overnight. The step from clubman or novice should not be that great. The C+ splitters should have been used to give the better skilled/fitter riders a greater challange not to provide a B- class.

What went wrong???

Instead of offering a reasonable challange to lower ranked riders coming up from novice and a handicap to those that aren't ready (or up to B grade) in Victoria we have made C+ a trophy class of its own.

What if?????? We softened the Blue line to make it a reasonable ride for those moving up and made C+ ride a harder line and compete for the same award? As I see it the step from C to B and A are usually related to skill and abillity so there is usually a natural progression. This not the same as a step from sections often with ride throughs or no splitters to big boulders, logs and steps that some of us will never ride.

I'm all for competetive sections and rider grading but we need to look at the level of skill and the risk of injury if we put someone where they don't have the capacity to ride. Sure, you can always take a five and I do, but it takes the shine off when you see a score card with only two or three points saved for the entire day when you have come from a class that if you lost a point it was because you fell asleep mid section.

Point is sections need be in line with the rider grading, no piont moving people up or down because the section setting is not consistant or appropriate for the riders.


BJ
Gone over to the Dark Side for a bit!!!!
http://www.parlagully.com

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keithj
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Postby keithj » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:03 am

BJ,

The issue of the difficulty of the C line comes up every few years, and always follows the same format:
"C grade is too hard"
"OK, let's back it off a bit"
...which happens, and everyone is happy for a season or so.
And then it slowly creeps up in difficulty for about 2 years until the cycle starts again!

I'll throw it on the table at the next Trials Vic meeting.


Keith.

-> Mouse Magnet <-


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Postby Cadman » Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:18 pm

keithj wrote:BJ,

The issue of the difficulty of the C line comes up every few years, and always follows the same format:
"C grade is too hard"
"OK, let's back it off a bit"
...which happens, and everyone is happy for a season or so.
And then it slowly creeps up in difficulty for about 2 years until the cycle starts again!

I'll throw it on the table at the next Trials Vic meeting.


As an example, last SA titles around 10 juniors managed lower scores than "cluman" adults whilst riding the same white line. Beginner adults are just not as nimble or brave as those young whipper snappers. OK it was a State title, so was expected to be harder than normal, hence entry as clubman not C. Reinforced concept, when all C+ riders entered as C, I'm sure I would be in a pine box if I'd tried the C line, or at least spending a long time in a recovery ward. Not sure about you, but I don't ride for trophies, sheep stations nor the love of pain & rehab, I ride for fun & a personal challenge.



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Postby jamie » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:01 am

there is another solution.

won't be popular with the trophy hunters though...

ride your nominated grade at club level, where the lines are typically easier. as you gain confidence you can ride harder splits or even attempt the odd higher grade section.

at open (whether state or national) events ride at the level most comfortable, if that is not your graded level then ride for no award!!

the side effect will be that someone else may win the day, gain some confidence and move up to the next grade!!



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outfit65
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Postby outfit65 » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:41 pm

Thanks all for firing up this subject, good to get feedback.

BJScorps, I think you may be missing my point. You have been graded Veteran, and are finding it to your standard with C Grade a bit tougher.

But what if you were graded, and finding, C Grade easy and decided to ride B Grade lines all season to improve and challenge yourself, but then drop back to C Grade for the Vic State Titles and win easily?????
I'm sure your fellow C Graders would be more than a bit peeved at you, especially the guy/girl who comes 2nd, or 4th.

This is the point I am trying to put across, and stop from happening.

Your point about C+ is valid and we ran it here last year, although I think the reason here was also so the 'younger' Veterens could still compete on a level playing field with no handicap.

Hey, if all are happy and it keeps numbers in the sport up, why not run the extra class(es).

cheers all and a safe new year as well

outfit


Sidecars - its betta to have a swinger than fly solo!


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