Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

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keithj
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Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby keithj » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:09 pm

The Trials Commissioners invite your comments on the following....

Two issues that I'd really appreciate you discussing with your States riders.

1. That we follow Europe's lead in restricting Under 18 trials competitors to 125cc machines, whatever Class or Grade they compete in. The idea being that Juniors would develop their riding technique, rather than relying on the super grunt available on 250, 290, 300s.

2. Jamie O'Neil, current TdN Manager, made a couple of excellent recommendations in his report on the 2007 TdN. That current, or prospective, TdN riders be encouraged to conduct Coaching Days on the Saturday prior to Open Trials in their home State. Jamie is fully aware of the Budget shortfall in recent years with the TdN Team. His suggestion would have the Experts returning something to their sport, which would be really appreciated by our B, C and Clubmen competitors who could attend these Coaching Clinics. All funds raised would go to top up the TdN Budget. We have a couple of excellent Women Coaches so there is no reason why they couldn't do similar Coaching fund raisers.

We would be very interested in hearing your responses to these couple of (possible) proposals.


All constructive comments welcome!


Keith.

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Re: Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby gmandas » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:21 am

Hi Keith,
I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion that Juniors be restricted to 125s. I think bikes of 125 capacity are better for developing skills, rather than a more powerful bike to charge your way through in a less finessed fashion. We all know what these little bikes are capable of anyway. The only problem I see is: Would there be enough 125s to go around? We might need a transition stage.
As to your second point: There are many options for fund raising available to persons seeking to compete in the TdN, but coaching days or even social riding days are the best way to give something future of the sport. Give the youngsters (on their 125s) something to aspire to by providing them with incremental training that is inclusive and inspiring. As to us oldies we're just happy to be out on the bikes and learning some new tricks. I'd be happy to pay money to get some pointers or even have a day out with our best riders.

Cheers,
G



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Re: Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby outfit65 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:11 pm

Like Greg I agree 100% with under 16's being on 125cc machines.
There were junior riders at the SA & Aussie Titles that really struggled with riding the bigger bikes (2 & 4 stroke), and I think their results suffered as a result.
In a 'power' section they were mostly ok, but in a technical section where placement was the key, they just didn't have the physical strength to put the bigger bike where they needed/wanted to put it.
Maybe Scott Owen should be looked at as a good example of learning the right way. Even though he is now over 16 he is still working on technique and he has stayed on the 125, due to International rules to a certain degree, but, maybe also due to being slightly built and not fully developed physically it suits him better.
Lewis Nolan also rode Expert class at the SA Titles on his 125, his first Expert outing across the Nullabor and aquitted himself quite well.
As far as there being enough 125's in the country, I also agree with Greg that a transition stage may be needed, but parents also need to be educated that power is not always a good substitute for technique, especially at a State and National level.

Cheers
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Re: Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby Scorps » Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:46 pm

Howdy Y'all,

I don't think there should an capacity restriction on any rider under the age of 18. I whole heartedly agree that youngsters who learn on 125's will have a better chance of being a really good rider down the track, but I think that restricting the capacity will possibly drive some juniors from the sport who are in it just for a bit of fun. There are plenty of very low cost bikes of larger capacity under $3000 at the moment, but not many 125's.

Maybe have the championships run using capacity limits for those who are serious, but let the young-un’s who just wants to go for a ride with their parents/mates, ride any bike they can afford (just not in championships)

Just my opinion – I think we are spending too much time on aspiring to world championship greatness and starting to forget the average rider who just wants a bit of fun with a social outing.

Cheers,
Your friendly neighbourhood ScorpaMan,
Scorps



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Re: Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby PA » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:00 pm

There are now a number of 125cc in the country. They are still hard to get hold of as owners seem to hold onto them for some years and pass them down through the family.

A possible way to introduce this would be to allow 200cc for a period of time as the largest engine size then after another 2 years enforce a 125cc limit. This could be introduced for the National Championship in year one then ask the states to follow suit over the following year or two in their State Titles. Still allow non title events to run whatever cc limit they feel serves their event the best. There are lots of young riders who start on TY175 Yamaha's so keeping state events to 200cc will allow these riders to continue to compete and gain skills in state based events.

This will give added time to allow more 125cc bikes to become cheaper as they age.

Summary.
Year 1, 200cc limit to National Junior Championship.
Year 3, 125cc limit to National Junior Championship.
Year 4-5, 200cc limit to State level events.
Club level events, do what is best for the local Juniors and let the organizing club decide.



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Re: Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby outfit65 » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:54 am

Fair comment Scorps, and I agree with fun being just as important, if not the most important thing for most riders, junior or senior.

However, riding a bike that is too big or heavy for the rider isnt fun. Having to struggle through sections and not be able to ride to your ability, and therefore enjoy your ride, is just as likely to push someone out of the sport.
If it is a shared bike (ie; dad and son/daughter) maybe dad will have to bite the bullet and buy a 125 to suit the family, not a 250/70/90 to suit him! He will still be able to have a good ride on the 125, and you never know his technique may improve and he may enjoy his ride more as well.

Like I said there may be a transition stage needed until there are enough 125's in the country and I think PA's answer above is pretty close to the mark.

cheers
Outfit



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Re: Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby jmclean » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:40 pm

I don't agree with proposal one right now for the exact reasons Scorps has given above. Fun and affordability are one of the cornerstones of our motor sport.
A young rider who is that good and aspires to riding overseas will buy a 125, probably new, anyway.

Why not restrict Junior class to 125's? If they don't have a 125, they can ride Clubman.

Training days by current A & expert riders, or even peers:
I'd suggest this would be a much more progressive initiative for our sport than restricting engine capcities.
I don't agree they must be on the day before a trial. A training day is an event in it's own right. We're targeting youth development, which means a family situation, which for most means Saturdays are out due to other family commitments and sporting pursuits.

That's my thoughts.
Cheers, Jim



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Re: Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby Neo » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:34 pm

outfit65 wrote:However, riding a bike that is too big or heavy for the rider isnt fun.

From a technical stand point. Take a look at the weight of a modern 125 and a modern 250...there only a couple of kilos in it. :shock: ... Granted that most of that is on the engine cylinder. Which does raise the centre of gravity.

I personal wish the manufactures would use lighter engines on 125's. But it looks like they are keeping the production costs down by making most components the same across all models. Thus the weights and frames are so similar.

I've been keeping my daughter on a GG70 because it's about 6 kilos lighter than a modern 125. But I can see the lack of power is making it harder for her now.


Best of balance.

Neo


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Re: Discussion: U18's restricted to 125cc; TdN riders to coach

Postby gmandas » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:21 pm

outfit65 wrote:
However, riding a bike that is too big or heavy for the rider isn't fun.

Whilst it is true that the modern 270/290 is not much heavier than the modern 125s, I'm sure the gist of Outfit65 comments are true. These "full size" bikes are very powerful and might be acceptable if a rider is not aspiring to big things and can cruise through simple sections, but inexperience mixed with unreasonable ambition will see many kids get beaten up by big bikes. It can be bloody hard work keeping the big power under wraps when attempting technical sections. One can use the power to bash your way through rather than use some finesse and technique, but it's pretty scary when the 270 starts to climb trees.
My son rides a 125 so you could say I'm biased, but the 125 is fully capable and can haul my bulk through anything that I'm capable of, Also after watching a couple of kids on 125s in the Ozzie Titles I see these little bikes can do anything. That being said these kids just about revved the rings out of them to get up and over some of the bigger obstacles. For mere mortals the power of the 125 is much more manageable and without the big engine and it's whirling mass, gives the impression of lightness. I am sure Junior Class would benefit from 125 restriction as has been the case in Europe.
I also agree with JMClean in that the Junior class could be restricted to 125 and under, and an expanded Clubman or Twin Shock for those youngsters who don't aspire the Juniors or can't afford a newer machine.

Cheers,
G




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