NSW observing standards are at an all time low

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The Hell Team
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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby The Hell Team » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:40 pm

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Axel
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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby Axel » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:38 pm

Why is it assumed that Promo's assessment of the video in question is correct? Promo's argument is that the Observer is in error. Was Promo inside the section with the same view as the Observer? Is Promo certain that the video commenced at the same time the rider entered the section? Did Promo see the Observers stopwatch to confirm that the rider was out of time? Seemed like a very large area to be viewed so clearly by Promo. Perhaps the discussion should be directed towards Promo's fabrication of an error, for whatever reason?



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Please keep the time limits

Postby kevin_zar » Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:24 am

Hello,
Please keep the time limits.
I rode experts at that last round of the NSW series, and it was really hard to finish sections 2, 7,8 and 10 within the 90 second allowance. I set off for the day with the big egotisic idea that I could ride the day without a minder, but I was totally wrong, I just couldn't finish the sections in control within the time, and I racked up heaps of points in the sections for time. So that was my fault for not making the right preperations to ride my class.

Time is a big point in top level competition trials, be it here or overseas, but it seems from the postings here that it's not important to people who don't want to ride the hardest or highest level.

If you asked me would i prefer to ride without time limit, I say no way, because firstly the current sections would be too easy, or at least not enough of a challenge, if I had 3 or 4 minutes to get everything perfect. And secondly I don't want to ride a outdated style that doesn't match the rest of the trials world, and I don't want our developing riders to miss a good development path of riding fast and hard, or they will be uncompetitive when they go to compete on the world stage.
We need to keep the time limit (the Euro's are set to go back to 90 seconds in 2011 after trying 60 seconds in 2010, and the riders all hating it, and the crowds being unimpressed by good riders looking like idiots madly pushing and paddling to get through in 60 sections. And worse, entries dropped with 60 secs because competitors found it too hard to ride in that time in challenging sections, so they didn't enter).

Of the 55 riders at that trial, there were 2 of us in experts, but I hope we have more in the class next time.

Best regards,
Kevin Zarczynski.



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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby The Hell Team » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:42 pm

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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby manxman » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:43 pm

Touchy lot arn't we!! still it makes a change from the 'square barrel, Jap carb, pre-history, is it-isnt it?, too old to ride, did they make that in those days? crap from previous posts. Nothing like a good slanging match on a public forum. Poor Promo probably thought he was introducing a valid topic, he now knows better.



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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby Col Zar » Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:21 pm

Hi,

I have the rare opportunity of agreeing with my brother. Yes, please keep the time limit of 90 seconds per section.
For me the events are so much better with this rule in place. It is more exciting, more physical and it stops us experts and A-Greaders trying our best to ride around the cards by doing 10 switchbacks in each section because we just dont have the time to do that.

Since the introduction of the 90 second time limit, Australia has been more competitive on the world scene. I know it has helped me at the TDN to produce some great rides for the team.

Looking forward to the events in 2011.

Cheers
Colin Zarczynski

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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby Steve Holzhauser » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:29 pm

I can see where promo is coming from, and the importance of his concerns.

If Jake Whittaker had of been able to make it over for the final round the timing accuracy would have been necessary to give a fair result to both Kyle and Jake..

Observers have more power to determine the result of a Trial than the riders themselves.

To me it is very important they are impartial and treat anyone who enters their section fairly and follow the guide lines which they are empowered to apply.

On the day in question there were two occasions I saw Kyle and on a few more occasions than two I saw Kevin time out with rides that were not at all what Trialing is about, it should not be a race and put both rider, minders. other riders as well as markers and spectators in danger with the furious race to the ends cards.

Its not the markers fault the sections were taking the full time allotment and more. Their stopwatch is the fairest way to ensure what they clip is determined by points lost negotiating the section in the allotted time or issuing a 5 on a time out, so accuracy is an important part of their duty.

It is very hard for section setters to get it right finding a blend of a series of obstacles to negotiate and have an eye on the distance riders are to cover and the preparation time riders need to tackle the more challenging parts of the section.

Even though timing is very rarely used on the lower grades, it removal would be a backward step in my view. Since its implementation the long hold ups from slug A and Expert riders has vanished which is a benefit for the whole field over the course of the day.

I have no complaints throughout the series with any of our markers, so would have to say the choice of title is very misleading .

Regards,

Steve Holzhauser.



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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby bgradesherco » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:04 pm

Being a upper grade rider myself (and ex A Grader), I thought i'd share my thoughts briefly.

I've noticed that on some occasions the observing is downright shocking, however, i've found it all works out in the end. if you get slugged a 5 when it was only a 2, well I can handle that as you write it off against all the little dabs the observer never saw. i'm just thankful to have an OBSERVED Trial and not a "click your own card day".

As my wife has observed at a few opens this year, I've helped her out when i've finished riding and to be blunt, observing sucks! when you have folks whinging that the fact THEY broke the tape and then complaining about the fact they got a 5, well, I wouldnt take it. So i'm not too quick to criticize observer for what they do, even if I do have the occasional whinge like we all do.

The problem in trials is not the quality of observers, rather the quantity!

Cheers,

(Real name available Via PM lol)



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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby Ben Z » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:19 pm

Hi all,

Well many of you will know me.... some may not... so be it...

I've had a lot of varied experiences over many years, as a rider in 3 different classes at Oz title level, as event organiser, as event officials and at other levels... so i have seen so many issues evolve in moto trials...

I have ridden events in most states at oz title level plus many events in Vic and naturally the majority of events in sa... but i can only comment on personal experiences....

To me our sports biggest issue with observers is numbers..... not quality.... but numbers...

All the non oz title event i have ridden interstate are observed by outsiders (non riders on the day) who have done their job well.

At oz title level.... i have seen and been disappointed by some decisions at some events... and be proud of decisions made at these same events by different people....

What is the bottom line.... CONSISTENCY!

If in this instance "as claimed" Kyle got some extra time.... woopee.... who else got extra time... how did this observer observe every other rider.... its is not about 1 instance...!

When we have run major events we give all observers a schooling... several weeks out... then on the day... we think they have done the job well... and we reinforce to main things to them... be CONSISTENT... and if a rider has a problem with their observation... tell them to see the clerk...

I close every observer training session with: "whatever you do be consistent... mates, family members, club members, people from the same state.... people from interstate or overseas are all the same... score every one equally and with consistency throughout the day... bottom line... if you give every single rider a 5... regardless of what they do in the section.... you are being consistent.... you will make my life as the clerk hell... but you are consistent! With the rolling back rule... you need to tkae in the big picture and all tyres on the bike... but If you let the first rider through your section roll back 5cm without penalty... let every rider roll back 5cm without penalty... just dock any riders that roll back 10cm... be consistant!

My perspecative... part of any event is not only learning the section... but learning the observer! When you walk the section... watch otehr riders and how they are observed.... you soon learn what you can and cant do in any section before you even get into the section yourself.

Refuccussing on things... here in SA we dont have the observer pool to do full day rides.... most events are half day.... we ride for 3 hours.... then observe other grades at the same event for the next 3 hours.... and the funny thing is.... i have seen over and over again... that quite often our own riders know less about the rules than the outsiders we bring in to observe full day events.... WHO WOULDA THOUGHT!!

As for the 90 seconds.... i havent ridden in teh last couple of years.... but i think it is a good thing.... it has been a disadvanateg to oz riders in the past going from an untimed environment here to a timed environment in europe... keep it... stick with it... it is benefiacial....

Closing comments..... all our observers are good.... cos they are there to let us do what we love... yes some may be better than others.... and most will be better than a fellow rider in teh same role.... but the bottom line is.... if they are consistent.... who cares what they do.... give every rider 100 seconds and who cares... its a level playing field... just dont give rider A 90 secinds and rider B 110 seconds....

Any discussions in the opening thread should have addressed how every other rider was observed as well... not just a once off look at one rider...

Cheers

ben


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You should take up sidecars!
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Re: NSW observing standards are at an all time low

Postby bigdamo » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:35 pm

Promo wrote:Yes, the observers do need better instruction and training. Overall there are not that may rules to abide by and it is not that hard to explain. If our juniors understand from such a young age I am sure all observers should be able to pick it up, given proper instruction. How about we pay the observers for their time from the profits that are being made from some clubs, we would then get the observers we desperately need and this topic would be treated with more respect.



When I observed I found there where quite a few rules and some where quite complex(I also competed)Kids pick up things quicker than say someone older than 30.

Promo how much do you think we should pay observers for standing in the bush with no toilets, no seats in all weathers for six hours with no break( if you where employed by a company I think that's against the law to work six hours with out a break?)

Are you also going to pay the observers their petrol money for driving say one or two hours to the event.

$20 an hour would be an insult (to most people)to pay people to work in those conditions.

Clubs are making are profit REALLY I thought trials clubs where lucky to break even.

Are you also going to pay all the other people who put time in to organize and run the events at there own expense.

Ok I admit it I stuffed up occasionally while observing.Running around watching a stop watch keeping an eye on the rider and the other eye on the ground so that I don't fall over which I did quite abit for six hours straight funny enough I got tired and my attention probably wasn't as good as it was at the start of the event.

But for you Promo I am going to train all through summer six hours a day running through the bush so I will be on top of it observing at the end of six hours.

Nah Go F***** your self.

Quote
"I don’t really want to attack you all, as you have done me. I would rather look at the issue and lets be clear, the issue is not with the actual observers it is with the clubs and their officials not training correctly or spot checking that they have taught the observers the rules correctly. Lets all take our ego’s away and consider the underlying point."

All the observers are told about the ninety second rule at least the observer briefings that I went too.It's another thing for a observer staying on the ball for the whole event scoring it.

Observes are only human and no amount of training is going to make them mistake free.

I still remember to this day when three years ago I went and observed at an event and this other gentleman went with his ten year old son to watch the event but was roped into to observe(he was a past rider who had given it up) they didn't have enough observers.

We where observing on one section when one rider fell over and appeared trapped under the bike the rider had a huge dummy spit and was swearing and cursing when the Gentleman observer and son went over to lift the bike off him he was told at a large decibel to F*** OFF in front of the ten year old.

I was so embarrassed I wondered why the gentleman just didn't pack up and go home.He stayed and kept observing.

But I bet he didn't come back.




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