non stop rules

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cactus jack
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Re: non stop rules

Postby cactus jack » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:56 pm

Gotta say I agree wholeheartedly with the above sentiments. I saw a lot of stopping on the day and didn't think observers were hard enough on this rule. I don't agree with the rules but do think that they are the rules, so they should be observed as required. Well said boldaussie. I look forward to the next event held here as I intend to observe for it and get a little more involved. It was a great effort to put everything together by Colin and his crew, so congratulations. The event seemed to run very well and it will be a true shame if it doesn't happen again here in Australia. Good on all the suppliers for getting out there too and helping as they did. Loved every short minute I was there. :thumb:



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Gary B
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Re: non stop rules

Postby Gary B » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:39 am

Boldaussie,
I was in the same boat as you, but I observed on Saturday, I was hard on the riders as the FIM and Toni Bou asked us to be at the chief observers school on Friday arvo.
I got booed by the crowd on some of my calls on "Stops" but on the second & third laps the only fives I had to give was for proper failures, Not from stopping. The riders & minders learn fast what they can & can't get away with.
On Sunday I saw some VERY bad calls by observers, Fives given for brushing splits, which was a five two years ago, but in 2014 you need to hit a split hard enough for the observer to repair it before its a five. I timed some stops of up to 3 seconds, with the observers still classing it as a clean.
I know we all gave up our time to observe thru a love for our sport, but hopefully in a couple of years time all the observers can be more consistent from section to section.


Gary B. from Wollongong MCC.
Now the Old Man in "Team Boniface"
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Steve Holzhauser
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Re: non stop rules

Postby Steve Holzhauser » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:45 pm

Reading what you expect of the riders, and your observations of another markers interpretations we can assume that at each and every WTC event this season all the riders are not only going to have to bring their best riding skills to the event, they are also expected to be putting a great deal of thought into the tolerance level of each and every observer before riding their section.

How can this be conducive of letting them ride to their abilities when they are on red alert to read the difference between an observer like you, that will punish a very slight pause or indiscretion with a 5 point failure, or be further confused by the observer at the next section that will allow a 3 second stop by a rider go un penalised.

This attitude of inferring that “as long as you are consistent with each rider on your section” is just not good enough for this level of competition, and is in fact robbing the riders who should be gaining an advantage on the scoreboard with their faultless ride.

A very public and blatant instance where a total absolute failure occurred that highlights the unfair nature of the no stop rule was on the final ride of the final section of the winning rider on day one.

Everyone, even the rider was surprised at what side of his card was clipped.

This and many other instances that go unnoticed give a totally false representation on the scoreboard at the end of the day of who actually was the best performer, and we just accept this as part of a very flawed system.

The fear factor of no stop where a rider must rush and hurry his attempt is not what Trials is about.

Lets go back to the days when observers did not decide the out come of an event with such varying interpretations of a stop.

These WTC events have very little resemblance to any normal Trial so cut out the areas that make the result a lottery for them. Let them amaze us and give them a free reign.

Make it simple for both rider and observer.

90 seconds

Stop allowed,

No crossing your tracks with both wheels,

Backwards with feet up allowed.

Easy for both riders and much easier for observers.

The continual move to restrict the riders from using all the talents available to them, and now weight restrictions on their machines is handicapping the top riders advantage and removing the spectacle for those who do come to see the wizardry they are capable of.

The questionable rules that are designed to bridge the gap between the very best and the rest of the field is not the way forward.

If we will have to wait a couple of years to get consistency in marking with no stop, we really are on the wrong path.



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Re: non stop rules

Postby boldaussie » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:19 pm

Hey Steve, you dislike non stop rules. You aren't alone in that. This was **NOT** A CLUB EVENT, its a world championship, sheep stations may well ride on the outcome. I make no apologies for being strong and strict at my section. For mine I dislike observers who choose not to enforce the rules that the riders ride under and we , in theory, had a full understanding of. The FIM video was very clear, no excuses there. You are missing the point here, the riders should NOT be riding to suit the observers on a given section, that they do IS an issue and if they do too bad for them if they get pinged on a tougher calling observer. They should all be like Cabestany and regardless of the variations in observers ride to the rules of the event. I agree that there needs to be consistency and I did notice there was more consistency than actual policing of the non stop rules of the event. Any of my personal criticism of observers was with me standing withing 10 feet of them so I saw from a vantage point very similar to what they did. I was told at more than one section that they weren't calling stops because they, the observer, didn't like the rule but I admit they were consist in not calling ANYONE. My question is with that attitude, why observe a section where it is important to the event, riders AND the public that you are fair and consistent and doing your best to enforce ALL of the rules and regulations of an event on the day. The observers on the day were representing their country and by being selective in the rules THEY chose to apply and not as directed, to be tough on stopping ( Gary is 100% right that the riders requested we were to be ) and have to a degree let the trials community of Australia down. There is an issue of getting enough observers for even a world championship event, let alone quality observers who are prepared to do the job they say they wish to do. Of course the minders and riders will query a call they don't agree with, that's the same in any sport. That such large variations exist and has had the potential to affect the results of the trial is very disappointing. I was queried on several of my calls, I saw what I saw, called it that way and stood by it. That was the job I was charged with, it was the job I and the rest of my team did and we are proud of our day. We will never get the ideal consistency with part time observers, that's a given. The non stop rule has made it more difficult for observers in only one way as I see it. Its a failure and it takes guts to call it. Other than that its a very simple rule to observe for, the course is laid out for it, the riders really can ride non stop very easily when they have to. If we the observers make it easy for them with no reason of course, many of the lesser riders will try to use that advantage, the best riders don't need to but................



boldaussie
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Re: non stop rules

Postby boldaussie » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:59 pm

Its made out to be a very difficult thing to observe non stop trials. Its not. If forward motion of the motorcycle ceases for whatever reason its a failure. Yes its a 5 and seems harsh, but they are the rules. Its like ANY other call you make in a trial, for dabbing, leaning, backwards, crossing tracks, etc AND stopping. Such an easy rule of thumb for any of it. Know the rules and be confident you know when and how they are applied. If you can't see it you CAN"T call it, If you have to ask yourself did he/she? then they didn't. How difficult is that? Of course they will query it if they disagree. Remember that it's what you actually see from where you are. Different angles will give different perceptions, find the best position to see the more likely areas for indiscretions, its very difficult to pick a stop from directly behind, below or directly in front. If you have little or no practical experience in any rule, research it, watch youtube videos of trials over and over and score them, make use of any released training videos from the FIM. Discuss it with your peers. Above all else, even if you don't agree with the rules, if you aren't prepared to enforce the rules of the event, do everyone a favour and be a spectator.



zulujack
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Re: non stop rules

Postby zulujack » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:43 pm

IMO 5 is too much. If they made it a1 point penalty, scorers would be less afraid to enforce it.



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Re: non stop rules

Postby jml » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:42 pm

From a total rookies perspective this actually makes the riding look kind of sloppy and rushed. I really don't believe that any rider tries to make a run take any longer than they require. It somewhat deducts from the refinement of skills in getting them through quicker. #-o



boldaussie
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Re: non stop rules

Postby boldaussie » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:01 pm

The non stop rules exist, they are a fact in many countries now. Observers NEED to learn to score them, like them or not. Take a look at the results from the 125 and world cup. Even with less severe obstacles due to the flow of the section non stop rules mandate, AND observers not calling stops, most of our Australian riders were still sadly lacking in the required skills to not fail most of them. The same was seen 2 years ago , same event when non stop wasn't applicable. The sections were set to fairly easy due to the weather that was forecast but fortunately didn't eventuate. For the regular world riders I am sure they were quite straight forward. Its wonderful as a spectator watching the worlds best achieve seemingly impossible clearance of obstacles, which is the whole point. To challenge the top 5 riders means making the sections impossible for any others. Do you think 40 riders are enough for a world event with simply a top five and the rest making up the numbers across 3 classes? I don't, trials is NOT about how impossible the rock is for you to climb. A trial should be highly technical and challenging and mistakes should be made due to natural terrain and wear and tear. My section was not difficult obstacle wise but was technically and caught many out. Non stop rules ensure if you are forced off the ideal line you wear it and manage the best you can. It does catch out the best riders, if the observers have the courage to call it and the obstacles are more achievable for lesser riders. The idea is to encourage more riders into the sport, it may not be ideal but it has the potential to.



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Re: non stop rules

Postby Jools » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:28 pm

zulujack wrote:IMO 5 is too much. If they made it a1 point penalty, scorers would be less afraid to enforce it.


Probably a can of worms this, but it's always seemed to me that there is not enough 'graduation' within the 1 to 5 marking system. (Yes I know it's all supposed to even out over the whole event but nevertheless...)
We now equate (say) a half-second stop with a complete fail. So a rider can clean a section, but having stopped for half a second, mark him the same as a rider who chucks his bike down the gully.
I'm not against no-stop, it's how a stop is marked that is the probem IMHO.



zulujack
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Re: non stop rules

Postby zulujack » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:14 pm

Well I think it is simple. If it is a one point penalty then onservers will be less reluctant to apply the rule.




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