non stop rules

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Observer Girl
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Re: non stop rules

Postby Observer Girl » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:00 pm

The Non Stop rule was great to watch, I put my stop watch on and most ran over the 90 seconds which i found interesting. They rode slower between the difficult sections so it has not speed the sport up on sections, but it certainly flowed better.
I agree that five is to strong, can't we use a four, it isn't used, a rider will avoid a four if at all possible but it doesn't put them out of the game. I also do not necessarily like the Non Stop rule but, it is the rule and should be scored. It is black and white really, not so hard, a stop is a stop. I also observed and in my position as starter was able to talk to the riders and the public watching, and there was alot of negative feed back for our section giving fives for a stop. But if a rider goes through without stopping and is beaten buy a rider that does, is that fair? Some may say it is to harsh so i won't score it, but what about the rider that has worked his but off perfecting the non stop like All the Aussie riders did, and then get beaten by and observer that wasn't prepared to five the rider that stops.. The Observer is not doing any one any favors by not doing his/her best to Observe and score what is observed. That is all we have to do, show with our hands what we observed, no decision has to be made. I love watching the guys, girls and families out there on the bikes in all weather conditions, the looks of total focus on the face as the pick the path through to the end. All ages, sizes and skill levels are amazing to watch and the friendship shared by all is awesome. And from the newest riders to the World Champions, I score the same, i see it, i score it, because i respect the art, the skill and the time put in by riders to get it right.
Awesome event run by dedicated, enthusiastic Aussies.
Thanks



boldaussie
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Re: non stop rules

Postby boldaussie » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:38 pm

zulujack wrote:Well I think it is simple. If it is a one point penalty then onservers will be less reluctant to apply the rule.


Its a worthwhile discussion, I for one am enjoying it.........Lets have a wander through it further then. An observers job is to........... ensure the riders follow the rules of the trial and score them accordingly. If a rider is prepared to risk stopping when its a 5 point fail to do so and following from that observers are too scared to enforce the non stop rule because it may be disagreed with, how is reducing the penalty to 1 going to make observing easier? When disputes from doing so leading to fear of calling the penalty, etc and etc up to 5 times...................... do you see where its going here? The riders have NO problem riding non stop, they have had a full season doing so, the course is laid out with it in mind. They want the observers to call it. The problems ONLY arise when the observers don't. Lesser riders will take advantage of weak observers. If a section is known to be strict they simply ride it the way its intended. Proof positive was my own section, round one for them to know how the section was managed, round 2 and 3 were absolutely brilliant to watch., and very easy to observe. Saying that my own opinion is the penalty is too harsh and for mine first stop ( defined by no longer moving forward in the direction of the course ) is worth 3, not a fail, stop again fail. Again saying that I observe using the rules of the event, what I personally think of the rules and penalties is irrelevant. To use an analogy, what you are suggesting is like saying as a batsman the umpire should let me stay in if I got a faint edge through to the keeper compared when my middle stump is lying on the ground. Both are out. One is easier for the umpire to call. Would you feel disappointed if stumps were lying all over the place and the umpy kept his hand in his pocket? I was seeing that, I was not amused.



zulujack
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Re: non stop rules

Postby zulujack » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:51 pm

Just my opinion, but unlike all the other things you can loose points for in comparison stopping momentarily is a pretty subjective thing. The fact that it is a 5 as opposed to a 1 must affect the observers judgement when scoring the best in the world. I bet you if they were scoring ones for stopping you would see a lot more of those penalties being applied.



boldaussie
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Re: non stop rules

Postby boldaussie » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:40 pm

zulujack wrote:Just my opinion, but unlike all the other things you can loose points for in comparison stopping momentarily is a pretty subjective thing. The fact that it is a 5 as opposed to a 1 must affect the observers judgement when scoring the best in the world. I bet you if they were scoring ones for stopping you would see a lot more of those penalties being applied.


Everything we call as observers is subjective, its the nature of the beast. The non stop rule is very clear and the official FIM video is also. If any rule is seen to be broken it MUST be called or there is no point having an observer. Whether the event is a club event, a championship or a world event. The observers role is to ensure that its a completely level playing field for everyone. It is not a trivial role we play. If you can't be confident in a call be a starter or marker. The biggest and long drawn out dispute I had was with a rider who had gone backwards on a large obstacle, Colin was standing beside me at the time. It happened to have occurred on the biggest obstacle on the section which I couldn't see clearly. The other 3 people on my section, also observers 2 years ago, all called it 5. As chief observer I made the final call. The rider was adamant that he had ridden correctly, it almost came to a yellow card situation. It so happens that as a spectator I saw the exact thing this rider had done the day before by Raga on the same obstacle and the chief observer in a similar position to me ignored the 5 called by his second observer and called it clean. Everything we see makes it subjective, it does matter. One five not called in the first round could have changed the outcome of the top 4 positions, think about it, reportedly within these posts it happened. It IS that important. Dumbing the rules down for observers isn't helpful to the sport, they are already simple. The rules are clear. Observers obligations are clear. When it matters the observers have to step UP. I think the world championships warrant it........



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Re: non stop rules

Postby zulujack » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:41 pm

boldaussie wrote:
zulujack wrote:Just my opinion, but unlike all the other things you can loose points for in comparison stopping momentarily is a pretty subjective thing. The fact that it is a 5 as opposed to a 1 must affect the observers judgement when scoring the best in the world. I bet you if they were scoring ones for stopping you would see a lot more of those penalties being applied.


Everything we call as observers is subjective, its the nature of the beast. The non stop rule is very clear and the official FIM video is also. If any rule is seen to be broken it MUST be called or there is no point having an observer. Whether the event is a club event, a championship or a world event. The observers role is to ensure that its a completely level playing field for everyone. It is not a trivial role we play. If you can't be confident in a call be a starter or marker. The biggest and long drawn out dispute I had was with a rider who had gone backwards on a large obstacle, Colin was standing beside me at the time. It happened to have occurred on the biggest obstacle on the section which I couldn't see clearly. The other 3 people on my section, also observers 2 years ago, all called it 5. As chief observer I made the final call. The rider was adamant that he had ridden correctly, it almost came to a yellow card situation. It so happens that as a spectator I saw the exact thing this rider had done the day before by Raga on the same obstacle and the chief observer in a similar position to me ignored the 5 called by his second observer and called it clean. Everything we see makes it subjective, it does matter. One five not called in the first round could have changed the outcome of the top 4 positions, think about it, reportedly within these posts it happened. It IS that important. Dumbing the rules down for observers isn't helpful to the sport, they are already simple. The rules are clear. Observers obligations are clear. When it matters the observers have to step UP. I think the world championships warrant it........


Look I'm not questioning the good work you observers are doing or saying that you are anything other than human. I just don't think 5 points is the right weighting for the offence. You could fall off your bike completely, you could ride over the tape, etc... and get the maximum. That is what I'd expect, but you don't go and replace a 90 second rule with minimal penalty with something that gives you a 5 just for a moment's hesitation because of one observer who is a bit trigger happy. I'd rather see the top riders complete sections (even after pausing).



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Re: non stop rules

Postby boldaussie » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:00 pm

Look I'm not questioning the good work you observers are doing or saying that you are anything other than human. I just don't think 5 points is the right weighting for the offence. You could fall off your bike completely, you could ride over the tape, etc... and get the maximum. That is what I'd expect, but you don't go and replace a 90 second rule with minimal penalty with something that gives you a 5 just for a moment's hesitation because of one observer who is a bit trigger happy. I'd rather see the top riders complete sections (even after pausing).


I understand where you are coming from, and agree in theory as already stated. Just a minor correction though. Exceeding 90 seconds used to give you a fail for the section, the non stop rule was brought in to enable the sections to able to be ridden by mere mortals, not JUST the gods of trials. Its a numbers game, the more riders able to compete at a higher level the better for the sport. By having to always move forward, time is never going to be a major factor and hasn't been even if at times more time has been taken, thanks for the info Observer Girl. So Jack.....Please define a moment? is it a tenth of a second, half a second, a full second, when you think the rider is balanced and ready to attempt the next obstacle? ahhh stuff it I don't agree with the rule so I'll let them off???....That's very fair? For me its simply when the moment goes from HAS HE? to HE DID ....for me that's quite a small period of time. I do it that way because if you attempt to think it through further, the moment becomes longer and longer and longer until its a farce if you then choose to call it. Once you have allowed one rider 1 second plus you have lost control of your section, it will only get worse. One second is a long time and very easy to see. 5 has been judged to be the right weighting for the offence because if the observer is prepared to penalize the rider for stopping the riders will do EVERYTHING in their power not to stop in your section, which is EXACTLY what the rule is intended to do. The pressure of observing is minimal under those circumstances. The pressure remains where it should lie, with the rider. There is indoor for those that like to see the impossible performed by Bou and his mates. Outdoor is still spectacular but is now far more technical. I for one appreciate that. Ohhhhh nearly forgot, the riders can still complete the sections even after a fail is called.



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Re: non stop rules

Postby Joe Henderson » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:20 am

Right from the start..

Observers and officials ( we tend to forget they are unpaid ) are the life blood of our sport and people like Gary B should be applauded for applying the rules as laid down.

So,

Welcome everybody to our junior school sports day.

As you all know, the school motto is " There are no losers at St Barnabies" Therefore, if you put a foot down we will let you off, after setting ourselves up as an independent tribunal with far reaching powers that can modify the event rules willy nilly and as we see fit....that is if we dont like or agree with the rules.

If you put your foot down twice, we will shake our heads and then let you off with a mild tutting noise.

If you put your foot down three times or more we will regretfully have to send a letter home to your parents and book a visit from the school approved social worker and health and safety officer due to percieved "at risk" threats.

If you stop in the section or your nanny moves a rock or digs a hole we will have to initiate a wholesale case investigation and apoint a welfare officer to look into your case. We are very concerned for your personal circumstances. but we will still give you a clean...because we dont agree with the rules.


If, as is stated, some observers were not marking stops, " because they did not agree with the rules" despite what the riders and FIM officials asked for, then they are guilty of the very worst of bad sportsmanship and petulance.

Let's attract the best in the world to our country, put on a stonking trial and then sully it with personal agendas.

Brilliant.

Joe Henderson.



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Re: non stop rules

Postby paulm » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:31 am

=D> =D> =D>



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keithj
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Re: non stop rules

Postby keithj » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:24 pm

G'day all.

Some good discussion here. I'd like to weigh in with a view on non-stop rules.

Firstly, it's extremely pleasing to hear from the likes of boldaussie and Gary B who maintained a firm, consistent, and literal interpretation of "non-stop" during their stint at observing. As was pointed out in a previous post, the riders and minders very quickly work out who is soft and who is not and ride accordingly.

Secondly, I also witnessed many obvious stops going unpenalised. Why? Probably a few reasons...
- it's tiring work, and the concentration slips as the day progresses.
- it's mentally draining, having to give a "5", then deal with questions in other languages and booing from the crowd.
- different levels of experience of observers

Thirdly, I would have to say I do think non-stop has achieved at least one of the aims the FIM set out to achieve, that is to level the playing field among riders. There is no doubt Bou and maybe one or two others were miles ahead of the rest in terms of stopping, hopping on the back wheel, and all the associated bike placement options available when you have those skills. Nowadays the field seems a lot closer in ability, and I believe the Australian and Japanese round results show that.

That said though, I think non-stop is a bad idea, for two main reasons:

1. The crowds absolutely hate a rider getting a "5" for a stop. I was at first stunned at the amount of booing (of the observer) when a rider cleared some massive obstacle only to be given a 5 for a momentary stop. But if you think about it, most of the spectators are not trials riders. They don't understand the finer details of trials. They don't appreciate the different skills and style required to ride non-stop. They just want to see riders ride big rocks! They want big, they want entertainment, they want to see a rider conquer the unridable. Not get a "5" for a 10th of a second pause behind some rock they can't even see.

2. The Observers hate it. They get booed by the crowd. They get arguments from the riders and minders. Non-stop interpretation was the biggest concern of every observer I spoke to. A few even said they wouldn't do the job again because of the rule. It is such a fine line between "did he" and "he did". In a perfect world, the FIM would have 50 paid and trained professional observers that would fly to every round. But they don't, so we have to ask and beg and cajole the Australian Trials community into doing the job. Don't get me wrong - some people love it! Some are lining up to do it again! But for many, it's rules like non-stop - and the associated flack they receive for applying it - that just makes it all too hard.

Who knows what the FIM will do. Hopefully they listen to the people, the Observers and the riders, and make appropriate changes.

As an aside: I will say that from an official CoC role, the non-stop rule resulted in no official protests and only two instances of riders "unofficially" querying with me a 5 they had received. So it looks like in general, after the initial querying (or arguing) at the section, the riders just accept it and get on with the task at hand.


Keith.

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Re: non stop rules

Postby Joe Henderson » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:22 am

So it looks like in general, after the initial querying (or arguing) at the section, the riders just accept it and get on with the task at hand.[/quote]


This is it in a nutshell. The best in the WORLD accept it.

We are trials riders, not competitive cake decorators or cup stackers.

And, as for the uninitiated spectators who booed the strict observers, well, " Nothing in the world is worth having or doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty. - Theodore Roosvelt.

Or, to put it closer to home..."If it were easy, everyone would be doing it"

Joe Henderson




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